Lunatic Americans, vol. 8

Israel's military option against Iran

 

Paul Bogdonoff <paulbogdonoff@sbcglobal.net>:

I thought you would be interested in the following story from The Wall Street Journal.

In the Mideast, Biden Returns to Abnormal

https://www.wsj.com/articles/in-the-mideast-biden-returns-to-abnormal-11612481108

Best,

Paul

 

 

Friday, February 5, 2021, charming@eclipse.net:

Hello Paul,

If Israel goes after the Iranian nuclear sites and takes them out (B’zrat Hashem), it has a double meaning.  One and the most important is the message to Iran that Israel is not willing to live with an Iranian Nuclear threat who wants to annihilate 7 million Jews and 2 million non Jews.

The second message is to Baraq Hussein Obama and his lackeys, Biden, Harris, Sanders, etc. which is thanks to Donald Trump, Israel is strong enough to take unilateral decisions for its own safety and security without the need to ask Washington for permission or its assistance or its approval or its authorization or its “Hashgacha”! 

Shabbat Shalom

 

 

I wrote:

1. Israel does not really have a military option against Iranian nuclear program. It is just too big, even for the fine Israeli air force. They just don't have the bombs that it takes, only the US does.

From a professional point of view only, all high ranked generals in the IDF and air force have always been against such an air strike. And not because they are cowards.

2. Israel did not have such an option even before Trump's term. Today, thanks to him, Israel is much weaker from an economic and military aspects. Such an operation on the US side takes building a coalition (such as the Bushes have put together), cooperating with foreign intelligence agencies, and so on; operation that today's USA is much less capable of creating.

So rest your arms, you armchair warriors, and let the diplomats do the job.

Cheers,

Avner E

February 6, 2021, STEPHEN GOLUB <golub413@yahoo.com>:

This Guy Avner is the only creature on the Earth that I have seen who claims Israel was weaker under Trump both  Militarily and economically ! Trump was beloved in Israel, but this Liberal ideologue named A, Mr. E,  or whatever knows better. The fact is that Obama REFUSED the Bunker Busting Bombs Israel asked for !Obama  did all he could to undercut Israel and its PM. Who else signed the moronic Iran deal but Obama and the jerk Kerry ( Kohen)?  Who do you think you are conning Mr.  E??? Yes your beloved  stealth Moslem Obama dear Mr. E. So  better you crawl back to your  Military genius delusions

and your "Insider's Economic knowledge" that no other "expert" has , and  I am sure you will put it all to great use!! Amazing that the US Government has not hired a genius like Mr. E ???

February 6, 2021, A charming guy known as charming@eclipse.net:

Mr. Avner,

I don’t know you nor do I know how you got on our thread, but anyway welcome. 

However we have a rule on our thread, and that is in order to be on our thread, one is not allowed to speak narishkeit or shturyot (foolishness), “that Trump made Israel weaker militarily and economically” might win the award for one of the silliest if not the dumbest remarks ever in our long history of exchanging information, facts and knowledge, especially when the overwhelming majority of Jews in Israel (90%) praise Trump’s name and would have wished he continued as our President and regret the return of Obama through Joe Biden, the Puppeteer who pulls the strings on the Puppet.    

As for your sage advice to leave the solution as to what to do with Iran to Diplomacy, that’s even a far worse statement than the aforementioned “Trump made Israel weaker militarily and economically” since Diplomacy is defined by Obama’s hateful decision to strengthen Iran with billions and a wink of the eye to go ahead and build a Nuclear bomb for peaceful purposes

Avner, if you promise you will keep to our firm rule as described above of no foolishness or stupidity, we welcome you, B’rooch Ha’ba!

February 6, 2021, Jack Zucker <jack@fullcirclecolor.com>:

Myron,

 I didn't know this thread has rules. I won't get into the details of your argument with Avner's opinion now, but I will point you to the narishkeit constantly spewed from Stephen Ha Golum, Norman Cohen et al. I move that they be voted off the thread, though I realize that this motion has as much chance here as Republican sanctions of Marjorie Taylor Greene.

Feb 6, 2021, <charming@eclipse.net>:

Jackie,

Trust me on this one. I didn’t make that decision by myself, I consulted with Barry Wolfensohn since he is the Senior Member of the Thread who attends Rabbi Moshe Herson’s Thursday night Shiur without wearing his Hearing Aid.

 

February 6, 2021, Jack Zucker <jack@fullcirclecolor.com>:

Myron,

You're incredible sense of humor (the reason I love you) aside, if the narishkeit rule was fully applied, there would be no thread left. I don't know Barry, but his sense of humor is a close second to yours, and generally spot on relative to the issues we banter about. Stay well and I hope to see you soon.

__________________

Jack Zucker

28 Illinois Street

Dix Hills, NY 11746

I wrote:

Mr. Charming Eclipse,

I also don't know how somebody from this thread (probably Ms. Lewis) got my email address, and emailed me one of her posts (probably passed on to her by a guy named Dan Friedman, NYC).

Anyway, I'd like to thank you for your kind invitation to this very interesting email thread. This is very nice of you.

As for the rule(s) of the thread, I totally respect your intention and will definitely adhere to the rules - that is, if I can understand them.

When you say "one is not allowed to speak narishkeit or shtuyot (foolishness)" - I suspect that what you really mean is "one is not allowed to speak any opinion that is too far removed from the warm consensus that we are desperately trying to keep here, because we are too coward or not smart enough to handle opinions other than our own" (I have a feeling that I'm going to regret using this last sentence...).

Please correct me if that was not your intention.

I'm saying this, because the notion that a President as controversial and ignorant as Donald Trump has weakened Israel's ability to defend herself - that's a valid opinion. If you think differently (some of my best friends and closest family members do) - I respect that, and I will never refer to them as being foolish, narcissist, talking Shtuyot or inferior to me.

I have very good arguments to back up my opinion, some of them I share with the most highly ranked military Generals, and Israel's thinktanks, including my good friend from childhood, Gen. (ret.) Amir Eshel, former Commander of the Israeli Air Force and today the general manager of the Ministry of Defense.

So, if your rule that I must not express these opinions in your precious thread still holds - than this rule is so stupid, second only to the stupidity of a few of your thread members, such as: Prof. (Fake) Norman Cohen, STEPHEN GOLUB, et. al.

Kind regards,

Avner Efendowicz, Tel-Aviv

February 6, 2021, STEPHEN GOLUB <golub413@yahoo.com>:

Mr. E- I am sure you are privy to the most secret  Israeli Military Intelligence on Earth. After all a genius like yourself, would be high on the list of any President to have a an advisor. Maybe National Security Advisor? Let us see some of your Military Facts and Intelligence that Israel was weaker under Trump! After all you are the only person i know of who has such important Military Intelligence!

 Show us all this "secret"  Intelligence that the Israeli Military shared with you!!Maybe we can get you something in the Pentagon or the CIA!???

Mr. Connected Military Genius Avner:

" I sincerely believe with you, that Banking Establishments are more dangerous than Standing Armies"!--  US President Thomas Jefferson

 Mr. E-Have all your big  "Gonnections"(borrowed  from The Great Gatsby) clued you in about the CFR, the Tri-Lateral Commission, the Bilderbergers, and  maybe Bohemian Grove?? Surely some of them attend the meetings??? Let us know  all about it ??

I wrote to this imbecile:

Mr. Golub (by the way, that's a Turkish name as well, so we may be relatives; I don't find it derogatory, because I'm not racist as you are, and to me Turks are human beings just as any others. And BTW, it's just amazing how somebody who belongs to a nation that suffered so much from racism, can be so racist himself. I take it that this is because you are so ignorant as well, in that you didn't pay attention in history classes. And in that, you belong to the most dangerous of all species on the globe - Men, Racist and Ignorant).

So, Mr. Golub,

I will explain it to you again in plain English and in simple words, as I did to Mr. Norman. I'm not sure that HE got it after the 11th time, but I have patience.

I don't have any secrets, and I wouldn't dare to share any with you guys if I had; I'm a loyal citizen of Israel, and I'd never use security to promote my political agenda - as did your friends Netanyahu (documented case) and Trump.

All my claims are based on public domain information.

Again, the difference between a Fact and an Opinion: my claim that Israel is weaker today than 4 years ago, is not a Fact, and I can't prove it (for one thing, I will never make up "information" like you guys do on this list, to "prove" that the imbecile that you support won the Elections). I just happen to have an opinion, that is shared by many military officials and security experts. Almost all Israeli top commanders were and are against an Israeli strike on Iran, including for example Gen. (ret.) Amir Eshel, the Air Force commander at the time. The reason is quite simple: unlike the successful strike on Iraq in 1981 (which was very complicated and risky by itself) - the Iranian nuclear program is distributed among many sites and locations, and is now buried under tens of meters of solid concrete underground. The destroy even most if these facilities, would take a strike in the scale that the Israeli military is just not capable of carrying out. It takes dozens of squadrons of bombers, escorting jet fighters, cargo, reconnaissance, rescue units for the case of the operation going wrong (my two sons are serving in such units), and so on.

Only a power such as the US is capable of doing  an operation on that scale. But even for the US, they never do so before they establish coalitions with other countries. This is done, Mr. Golub, through diplomacy - a concept that you so despise. Even George Bush, senior and junior, knew that.

On top of all that - most intelligence professionals agree, that after the clown (who has never read an intelligence report), withdrew from the agreement with Iran - they resumed their program, and they are now much closer to the Bomb than in 2016. But this is a topic for another discussion.

I can go on an on, but I have the feeling that this is too much for your span of attention and reading (not to mention comprehension) capability.

Regards,

Avner

February 7, 2021, STEPHEN GOLUB <golub413@yahoo.com>:

Mr. E-Yes  all the facts of the difficulties with an Air strike have been long Published in various US Publications. So you offer nothing new at all. With Israel so weakened by Trump accoding o you, it is amazing how he was apparently loved in Israel. I guess all your  buddies in  the Military and Intelligence fields kept it all to themselves?? ! Nothing you wrote is at all new ,except the idiocy your left Wing buddies spread about the President! You are sure the Mullahs who have absolutely NO Religious obligation to be truthful to "Infidels", will keep their promises  with an agreement, or no agreement  at all??  "  Mr. E "knows"!! Did Hitler honor his agreements. Do the  Communists?? What are we fools you think??

Here  " a special for you"from Bill Clinton's Mentor Professor Carroll Quigley at Georgetown U!

"There exists, and has existed for generations an International Anglophile Network which operates to some extent, the way the Radical Right believes the Communists act. In fact this network which we may identify as the Roundtable Groups ( CFR) has no aversion to cooperating  with the COMMUNISTS or any group and frequently does so!

 The Professor goes on to say he has examined the Group's secret papers for 2 years and his only disagreement with it, is that it chooses to remain  unknown!

 From his Book "Tragedy and Hope"!!

 I am sure your high briefings with Military and Intelligence people advised you of this    " group"!????/

I wrote:

I don't think that Trust goes by religion, country, or ideology. Do you want me to indulge you with a (partial) list of major promises made by the USA or Israel and broken?

My point is that the agreement with Iran, and the IAEA inspection that came with it, kept Iran from progressing in their program, more than anything else that the Clown has done. It's not about trust at all - just efficiency.

Cheers,
Avner

Feb 7, 2021, Norman cohen <ishahrofah@gmail.com>:

Golub is Russo-Yiddish for a pigeon or dove.                           

                                голубь

                                       Norman

I wrote:

What's the difference? Half of this list (the republican half, basically, sorry from the exceptions) is all full of Fake. So I thought "While in Rome, behave like a Roman"...

A bit of sense of humor never hurt anybody (especially Jews).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nz7khqenFU&t=6m34s

Cheers,

Avner

STEPHEN GOLUB <golub413@yahoo.com>:

I am long aware of my name. My Great Grandfather was a Bootlegger ( Bimber) in Torczyn and made a lot of money from it. My Maternal Grand Father  was from Odessa  . His Father had a dispensation from the Czar! My Great Grand Father from Torczyn  drank himself to death! Used his own product!  My Grandfather ( his son) 

was Born in Torczyn Poland !!I consider myself a Polish Jew!  I have no sense of humor so it does little to try and make me laugh. My friends  at times try although I warn them not to waste their time.

  Ever since I was a youth I was unhappy! I watched the Left  Liberals  destroy my Country day by day. I knew something was wrong but could not figure it out as a youth. I could not understand a Nation doing everything against its best interests. Later research  found the  Globalist Conspiracy!  Now at the ends of my time I watch my Nation that I dearly love  collapsing !! A left Liberal is not an opponent to me. he is a dangerous enemy. Piece by piece, day by day, step by step, the Liberal takes your Freedom, your money, and your property! The end result of Liberalism is Nazi like Communism!!

I wrote:

Mr. Golub,

I could not help but relate to your moving story (really).

I will disregard the derogatory comments (Left is enemy), and I'd like to say to you "Welcome to the Club". The club of people living for 43 years under our rival's rule (the Right - since 1977), and witnessing how they take the country down. (I am old enough to remember the days of the Israeli Labor party - not perfect, corrupt to some extent, but seems like heaven in light of today's Likud).

And this is why I thought you were of Turkish decent:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bagot_Glubb

Actually, he was British. No offence.

Cheers,

Avner E.

February 7, 2021, <charming@eclipse.net>:

I googled General Amir Eshel.  He has a remarkable military history.  Please send us if possible whatever you have in English talking about the bombing of Iran and why it’s not possible.  Google doesn’t mention it.

I wrote:

They didn't say not possible - I don't know what they said (for obvious reasons; no, I don't have inside information), but I guess it was: very complicated, not worth the cost, inefficient.

Here is just one:

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4266973,00.html

"Not a single state official or military official or even the president – supports an Israeli attack in Iran."

The English version does not mention Gen. Amir Eshel, but the Hebrew version does:

https://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4266954,00.html

כל הדרג המקצועי מתנגד לפעולה באיראן - הרמטכ"ל רב-אלוף בני גנץ, מפקד חיל האוויר האלוף אמיר אשל, ראש אגף המודיעין האלוף אביב כוכבי, ראש המוסד תמיר פרדו, ראש השב"כ יורם כהן.

I'll translate for you:

All the professional staff is against a strike on Iran - that includes IDF Commander in chief Gen. Benny Gantz, Air Force commander Amir Eshel, Commander of the Intelligence directorate Gen. Aviv Kokhavi (IDF chief in 2021), director of the Mossad Tamir Pardo, director of Shabak (secret service) Yoram Cohen.

Cheers,

Avner E.

February 7, 2021, <charming@eclipse.net>:

AVNER,

I tried several times today to get a straight answer from you.  I was extremely civil and sincere.  While I respect the fact that you served in the Israeli military and your two sons are serving now, I find your political philosophy impossible to understand.  If you were here in America, one of the 75% Jews who voted against Trump but never actually voted for Biden, I would understand that you are a generation removed from your descendants being Jews but you’re truly one of few percent minority in Israel who sound like a Jew Hating Jew from America who hated the hero of the Jewish people in Israel!

Avner,

I read what you sent and I respect the men who have the heavy obligation and responsibility to make overwhelming decisions especially one like this.  So you write and say that all that’s left is Diplomacy?  Please expound

I wrote:

Dear Myron,

First, please accept my apology for not responding promptly - too busy.

I too was looking for options to watch the Superbowl, without the annoying comments of the ignorant Israeli commentators (and with the commercials).

Whoever says that Trump is loved in Israel, doesn't live on this planet.

Roughly half of the population are satisfied with the things he did "for Israel", but nonetheless they are not so crazy about who he is. Most people think that he is just a fool (albeit a useful one).

Regarding Iran and the Bomb - I think that there is not much to do. They will have the Bomb whether you like it or not. If Israel has it, then Iran can't be denied.

You probably think that the Iranian leaders are crazy, and that the Israeli ones are not. I respect that. But I think that it's the other way around. In this, you are correct that I am in a small minority, I admit.

Iran is a bad place to live in, but that doesn't mean that the leaders there are irrational. Fanatic, evil - yes, I agree. But that's not the same thing as being irrational. I think that they are totally rational - which I can't say about some of the Israeli politicians. The Iranians want the Bomb for the same reasons that any other country does - they want power, protection from other countries, and patriotic project, to divert their problems to. Iran is surrounded by Suni countries, and wants to threat them back.

This is in short. Not much to do, but in any event, diplomacy can get much more than sanctions or violence. I'm pretty sure that you won't like it, but that's my opinion.

Who is right?... - in Hebrew we say: Days (= the future) will tell. Let's live, and die, and then see... (Danny Sanderson, a top Israeli musician).

Cheers,

Avner E.

February 7, 2021, <charming@eclipse.net> (in italic and Bold):

According to all my Israel family and friends, they keep telling me that he is not loved but super loved

Maybe they mean that he is loved by 10% of the population. I would like to think that your family members don't belong to them.

Except Iran threatens Israel daily with blowing them up with a nuclear bomb, I haven’t heard Israel saying to any nation or any enemy that it intends to blow them up with a nuclear bomb

It's interesting who people take the word of Muslims only when it fits their agenda. I don't believe that, it's against their interests.

Israel, on the other hand, without a word spoken - denies the right of Palestinians to have their own state, like many other nations (and killing hundreds of them in the process).

YOU CAN ask me my opinion and I’ll for sure give you my opinion so please don’t make the mistake of assuming how I think, at age 83 thank GD, I still have my marbles in tact

Good for you, I wish you live to 120.

In any case, that's what I thought - you think that Israel leaders are more rational. With all due respect, I think that you are wrong.

Mr. Netanyahu in particular is way more evil and selfish than all Muslim leaders. He is practically raping this country, dragging her to 4th elections in 2 years, just to evade his trial. And he is the main reason that 5,000 people have died of the pandemic.

Avner, I would like it if diplomacy was on the level.

It was, when President Obama, the best US president in my life time, was in office. And it worked much better.

To those who refer to him as just Senator - he will be remembered as one of the best presidents, long after we are all gone.

Cheers,

Avner E.

February 8, 2021, Ryan Silver <rls198011@gmail.com>:

Obama was the greatest president...

His restarting the Islamic slave trade in Libya with his failed overthrowing of Ghadafi was amazing. 

Obama’s funding of Isis was brilliant. 

Obama’s dismantling of Europe’s Missile defense systems protecting them from Russia was a move of sheer genius. 

Obama letting Russia take over Crimea was magnificent. 

Obama’s Iran deal not only helped Russia but gave a country who kill and killed a,Erica s and jews billions of dollars in cash and unfroze hundreds of billions in assets. This move was perfect. 

Obama letting China abuse us without consequences was even more brilliant.

His genius is unsurpassed. 

I wrote:

Some of your claims are known to be false, others - I didn't check yet.

Obama has put together the first public health system in decades - if this has no meaning to you, then you must be very rich (I bless you for that). Obama could have done it way better, had Congress not put sticks in his wheels. Anyway, you guys live in one of the only countries in the modernized part of the world, that does not have a public health system, and therefore you have to be rich to get decent treatment. 47 million without any health insurance, prior to Obama. I hope that all you guys on this thread belong to the upper 10% income bracket (like I do, thus the Capitalist system is actually good for me - I opposed it nonetheless) - so you can stay healthy.

One thing to take from Covid-19 is - only public health system can deal with such a large scale pandemic. In such cases, the rich cannot take care of themselves - they are aboard the same boat with holes down its bottom.

Most people in my country don't like Obama, and they truly like Trump in rating that I will admit now that I was wrong about - it's definitely more than the 10% that I mentioned.

For one thing - Israelis expected Obama to intervene in Syria, to stop the terrible bloodbath over there. I find this hypocritical. How come they expected the USA to send its men and women to fight in Syria, while nobody in Israel was willing to do the same? That, especially after two disastrous and failing wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, that cost Tens of Trillions of Dollars and thousands of lives, and achieved nothing? I think that Obama was very wise to spare your country form another disaster.

I could go on and on - the economy that the Obama administration managed to rebuild, after the 2008 crisis, the direct result of absence of regulations that the Reagan administration failed to build (I lived in California back them, and lost my job together with 2 millions Americans).

I don't recall as good a president as Obama, maybe since Kennedy - I was too young back then.

Cheers,

Avner E

February 8, 2021, Mark Harrison <cityfox@verizon.net>:

Just to add my two cents to this issue of health care.

In most countries the cost of socialized health care is built into the income tax rate somewhere about 15% to as high as 40%.

In most countries excluding Israel health care is somewhat less quality (not Great)

Some countries are better than others but not as good as American or Israel.

Canada has good socialized heath care but elective surgeries has a very long waiting list. Not so good.

I have family in Canada some buy Health Insurance in America to come here for elective surgeries

I have medicare and a supplement, my wife with a family plan 2 children pay now $13,000 a year for family coverage health plan (and that was after it raised considerably post Obamacare) That equals to about 8% of our retained retired income. We are both retired.

Before Obama Care every public hospital had to handle anyone with a health issue, that was mandatory.

So in a sense we had health care for all.

In those years my family health care cost was less than 3% of my earnings.

So now lets compare apples to apples.

Do the math we have gotten better health care under capitalism at a lower cost.(Not Just for the Wealthy)

P.S. can you tell me anything government controls that works well?

Mark Harrison

I wrote:

Sorry, I am only familiar with what I have read and know up close.

In Israel, Mr. Netanyahu keeps bragging about Israel being No. 1 in the world in Covid-19 vaccination per capita - which is true. 80% of Israelis aged 60 and up, are post-2nd shot.

What he "forgot" to mention are these facts: The operation is based on Kupot Kholim, an institution that Netanyahu fought hard against, among others. This is a quite unique health system that survived his privatization, thank god.

For the vaccines, Netanyahu paid a price which is kept secret, and will remain secret for the next 30-90 years (!) depending on whether they manage to label the protocols "security related". Another example of governmental operation.

A list of government controlled systems:

⦁ Mega-investments in hardware sector of High-tech (silicon chips manufacturing Fabs in the US, Taiwan, Israel, Ireland, France, etc.). $2B investment per 1 modern Fab.

⦁ Energy manufacturing, including nuclear

⦁ Education system in Finland, Singapore, Israel 1940s - 1977.

⦁ Railroads in Europe, Japan; Public transportation in general

⦁ Military, fire departments

⦁ Covid-19 in New Zealand, Germany, Taiwan, China

⦁ Health systems in most socialistic countries (including Cuba)

The list goes on and on.

Regarding:

Canada has good socialized heath care but elective surgeries has a very long waiting list. Not so good.

Of course I take your word for what you wrote - only it somewhat contradicts what I saw in Michael Moore's testimonies in his file Sicko. He shows families crossing the border to Canada to get medications and care in the same quality but much cheaper.

Cheers,

Avner E.

February 8, 2021, Norman cohen <ishahrofah@gmail.com>:

How did the USA live for 150 years without Social Security?

     And 180 years without Medicare?

                      VERY WELL !

By 1930, it was the greatest country on Earth.

    So great, it made the difference in WW1 (entered in 1917).   

    So great, it could give Germany and Japan a 2-year head start in war,

             supply the "allies", get hit with a sucker punch and still win.

Today, the real cost of medical insurance is far greater than was the real cost

of the medical care itself in the 1950s.

Don't give me crap about "health care".  That's leftist newspeak.

      I take care of my own health.   I go to doctors for medical care, not health care.

Don't give me crap about "health insurance".

        That's leftist newspeak to make the drones think that they'll live forever.

        "Health insurance" is when the Rolling Stones take out a policy with Lloyds of London

               to insure against missing a gig because they become unhealthy.

I buy medical insurance, not health insurance.

                                                 Norman

I wrote:

You buy health because you can afford it (thank god). But the majority can't.

Now that almost 1/2 million Americans died of Covid-19, you are helpless. Only countries with public health systems kept both their health and economy.

And you forgot to mention Roosevelt's New Deal - a guy you would call a Marxist today. Government investments is what kept you through WW2, not the private sector and the "invisible hand". It's invisible because it only exists in your dreams.

Cheers,

Avner E

Feb 8, 2021, Norman cohen <ishahrofah@gmail.com>:

The Iran nuclear threat is not to Israel.

       it's to the USA.

Iran wouldn't dare attack Israel.

     Israel can shoot down anything Iran would launch and then would destroy Iran in retaliation.

The USA is different.

       A missile would not be used, and the USA would not know where the bomb came from.

My assessment.

      Trump/Netanyahu have left a strike force in place that will not be disturbed by their successors.

As soon as an Iranian nuke is spotted in a vulnerable place by their sophisticated intelligence, its head will be cut off  .... as an owl picks off a mouse that has left

its hole.

                     

           Norman

james rizzolo <brooklake@verizon.net>:

More fear mongering with zero facts presented.

Jim Rizzolo

Feb 8, 2021, Rachel Lipsky:

If Mike Lindell alerted Jack during the early 1940s that the Nazis in Europe gas Jews in concentration camps, he (and I am afraid all other Lefty fools) would have reacted the same way as Jack reacts to Lindell – fully dismissing the message since they dislike the messenger.

 

This is an utter proof that those on the Left lack basic integrity and are complete frauds. 

Jack Zucker <jack@fullcirclecolor.com>:

Rachel Bubbella,

If Mike Lindell had alerted me in the early 40s, I wouldn't have understood. I was only 3 years old. However, as a student of history, and with an uncle who bashed Bundist heads on Fordham Road, and with stories of Myron's father doing the same in Newark -- I believe they (the Bundists) were all right wing nuts of the day and in support of Hitler. Don't spout bull___ when you don't know which end of the bull it is coming out of.

__________________

Jack Zucker

28 Illinois Street

Dix Hills, NY 11746

Yet another answer to Ms. Max Coutinho

Dear Ms. Continho,

First, I must apologize to you, Ms. Continho, for not recognizing that you belonged to the better gender. I should have noticed this from your language, sorry about that…

To the point: the majority of Palestinians elected Hamas (in the Gaza Strip only!), not because the majority of Palestinians have become so fanatically religious or anti-peace (although the Israeli government is giving them all the reasons to be so), but – because Hamas, in addition to being a terrorist organization, is also a welfare organization and jobs provider. This is much like the Shas party of Israel, which is an ultra-orthodox, anti-democratic political party (they don’t allow women in their roster; they are being led by an orthodox Rabbi strictly according to the Jewish Halachic rules – or so they say, I wish that it was even partially true; etc.); their supporters are not necessarily religious at all (they are what we call “traditionalists”), but they still elected this party, for providing long education days with hot meals to their children, and jobs to the parents.

In short, electing Hamas doesn’t make the Palestinian public any less innocent, compared to the Israeli public which elected this evil and dishonest government.

As to your point, that Hamas are using innocent people as “human shields”: this is much like the Jewish settlers, who put their women and children’s lives at risk, by living in towns and villages provocatively built inside and far out in Palestinian territory. Not to mention, that the IDF (the Israeli military) is “cowardly using” (as you said about Hamas) local residents, uninvolved in combat, as human shields during search missions. This procedure was eventually banned by Israeli Supreme Court, but has been used nonetheless occasionally.

As for your (own) interpretation to the Declaration of San Remo: well it is, in my humble opinion, completely wrong. Here’s why: the November 2, 1917 declaration (known as “the Balfour Declaration”), upon which San Remo’s was based, called for “a national home for the Jewish people”, and as you rightly mentioned, must not “prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities”. If you are so meticulous in reading the civil and religious rights as not pertaining to “national aspirations”, then you must be just as meticulous as to acknowledge, that a “national home” does not necessarily mean an independent state! Because, although the Israeli government has long ago acknowledged the right of the Palestinian minority for self-government, it has always done its best to deprive them form giving this a political implementation, but rather fulfil this be some kind of “autonomy”, whatever that means. Don’t get me wrong, I am all for a Jewish State in the land of Israel; I have fought for it, and I brought my boys up to do the same. But if the 1917 declaration does not imply a state for the Palestinians, then honesty obliges that it does not imply a Jewish state, just as well. Not to mention, that the end goal, “to protect the civil and religious rights” as you said, has never been fully achieved – as an official government committee (the Or Committee, 2000) has clearly stated.

Fast forwarding to 1947: the UN resolution, taught in Jewish school as “calling for the establishment of a Jewish State”, actually called for establishing two states, Jewish and Palestinian, the last part omitted from the curriculum for some reason.

But I will give you that (something that the Right-wingers fail to do to us on the Left), that there could be an interpretation to the legal issue, which is different than mine. My point it simple: the legal situation is not what really matters (and this is what I meant by saying “irrelevant” in my post). Because, even if the Palestinians do not have the right for their own state, from the international law point of view – then what do we do with them? If we don’t give them full civil rights (which you actually agreed to do, and that includes the right to vote – which would lead to a Muslim Prime Minister pretty soon, and, in many people’s view – the end of the Zionist project) – if we don’t give them that and hold them as second-class residents, then Israel cannot be truly regarded as a democratic state. We can’t expel them, we can’t hold them occupied – so what do we do? The only answers I have heard so far from fellows in the Right are – Israel Trust in God almighty, or that we should just wait for them to learn to accept us and the wonderful life we generously give them here, or that they will just go away.

Regarding Apartheid: No, Ms. Continho, about 2 million Palestinians are NOT allowed to vote for the Israeli government. Can’t you see that you defeat your own argument? – You claim that the Palestinians do not deserve their own state, yet at the same time you exclude them from the Israeli public, when you claim that in Israel, everybody has the right to vote! So it’s either you are against a Palestinian State, which renders all Palestinians under Israeli control lack the basic right to control their own fate, or – you claim that voting is free for all in Israel, by which the occupied territories are excluded from Israel.

And regarding sexual relations – it is not illegal to have inter-race relationship; but almost anybody who will try to date somebody from the different religion will soon find out that it’s nearly impossible. For this, by the way, I blame both sides and not only the Jews.

For your knowledge, I do acknowledge “the fact that the Palestinians murder civilians”, and I don’t “refuse to criticize them for that poor approach”. In fact, in most Arab countries, thousands of people have been murdered and abused by their own people, and I attribute this to the poor moral standards in effect in those countries, especially in Syria but also some in Palestine. This by the way has nothing to do with Islam, but with the nasty and cruel regimes in those countries in modern times. In short, those who did it are primitive criminals, justifying their crimes by a distorted and inhuman interpretation of the Islam, a phenomenon which, I must say, is very common in the modern era in many Muslim societies. But this can’t justify killing civilians by individual Jews (like Dr. Baruch Goldstein, who is considered a martyr by a great part of the fundamental Jewish right wing), but also by the Israeli military!

I don’t know how you came to put this thought in my head and words in my keyboard, that I did not criticize the Arab side. This is either a remarkable demonstration of mind-reading (albeit totally wrong), or – a demagogic argument, very typical, I must say, to the right wing rhetoric.

To claim that “the international law says that this disputed piece of land belongs to the Jewish People, period” is nothing more than reducing the argument to a level that nobody can argue, because you, the knows-all, have put a period at the end of your sentence. If you had enough intellectual honesty, you would admit that this is just your own interpretation, which I do respect, but is just as good as the opposite one.

If you conclude by your interpretation to Ismail Haniah, that “the Palestinians do not want peace and they will never recognize the Jewish State” then you show another remarkable ability of predicting the future; and in seriousness – a not-so-remarkable manner by which you comprehend the situation, if you think that Haniah represents the majority of Palestinians.

With all due respect,

Avner Efendowicz

An Answer to Ms. Max Coutinho, on Israeli Occupation of Palestine

Dear Ms. Coutinho,

As before, I would like to address your claims one at a time, which necessitates a separate post. Please refer to my new post, following this comment.

I don’t argue the right of Israel to defend itself against enemies. In fact, I was a combat soldier and officer in the Israeli military, and so have been my two boys (one of them non-officer in fact). However, I can’t agree to your phrase “at all costs”, which may point out to immoral measures. Please clarify if this is not the case: does “at all costs” include the cost of the lives of innocent Palestinian people? Or you think that there are no innocent among them? Please clarify.

I am not focusing on one side only, I am well aware that some Palestinians have committed terrible crimes. I am just puzzled and taken by the fact that this is being abused by so many right-wing speakers, to justify the wrong doings of the Israeli (I should say actually, the Zionist side). One evil cannot justify another evil. And the actions of the Israeli government at this moment in history are evil, to a great extent. The definitely don’t “abide by international agreements” in many cases, for which I can give you a few examples.

According to the International Law, “the territories” are truly occupied. The may be “disputed” as for their political future, and there is no dispute among international legal entities that they have been occupied in a war, and therefore there is no freedom and protection of the law for all who are living there – only for the Jews. Did we mention Apartheid? What is Apartheid if not separate law for different people, based on their ethnicity? Further to that, even the greatest friend of Israel never recognized its right to build the settlements, and this is the reason that the US sees even the Capital of Israel as part of the Settlement system, which is why they won’t build their embassy there!

Yes, I have read the part of the Forth Geneva Convention which is relevant. There is a dispute if Israel has the right to build settlements in the occupied territories, according to that convention. Section 49 of the Convention states that an occupier cannot transfer people into the occupied territory. Israel has signed this document, but stated that it didn’t apply to the West Bank, because – well, because it never belonged to any country. Some excuse.

On top of all that, the Israeli government, this is my interpretation as a resident of this country), is using the Settlement system in order to prevent any possible future solution; so claiming that it has the right to settle there “until its final status is resolved” is a bitter irony. Even the Israeli supreme court has acknowledged that at least some of the settlements (such as “East Matityahu”) have been built to annex Palestinian territories, and not as the State claimed in court (which was refuted by military experts), that it was built for security reasons.

What I call “irrelevant” is not because I can’t explain it (as your demagogic rhetoric suggests), but because, if Palestinians lived in those territories 100 years, 1 year or one day before the Jews came in – is irrelevant; you can’t kick them out just because the ancient Romans kicked my ancestors out – that’s not the Palestinian’s fault.

Again, your assumption that I “get a sense of deep joy when you see young Arab boy throwing rocks at Israeli vehicles and murdering people” is just another sign of your demagogia. Can’t you criticize your government’s action without feeling joy when people are murdered?

By stating that I said “ the Jews have no claim to their own land” you are, again, putting in my mouth words which I never said (which is quite typical to right-wing advocates, I must say). Did I say that? Or did I say that there are two nations here who are fighting for a piece of land which most of them already agree that it can be shared (read the polls, and check out the Geneva Initiative: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Initiative

or The People's Voice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_People%27s_Voice)

You will find there the same guidelines for any future solution which has been around for more than a decade now, but the Israeli government is constantly refusing even to have one discussion about it. Strangely enough, it is supported by the big majority of Jews and Palestinians (according to polls), but one of the most stable Israeli governments ever doesn’t acknowledge them! Strange you say? Absolutely, it’s one of the mysteries of Israeli politics. More on that in the next post on my blog.

מי כאן הבריון

בעקבות ההשתלטות של לוחמי השייטת על משט הסיוע לעזה, שוב נשטפת הארץ בגלים עכורים של פטריוטיות זולה. סיסמאות בנוסח "כולנו שייטת 13" ניבטות אלינו מפינות שונות בארץ. חשוב להבהיר, שעל האופניים שלי אין סטיקר כזה
ראשית, מפני שלא שירתתי בשייטת
שנית, מפני שבעיני, הפורעים והאלימים בסיפור הזה הם חיילי השייטת, ולא פעילי השלום שבאו לפרוץ את המצור הבלתי צודק על עזה

מאבקם לעצמאות של הפלסטינים, ושל תומכיהם ההולכים ומתרבים בעולם, הוא מאבק צודק על פי כל קנה מידה הגון ומוסרי, גם על פי המוסר היהודי. זאת, גם בהסתייגות המתבקשת, שהאמצעים שנוקטים חלק מהפלסטינים, הם נפשעים ובלתי מוצדקים. הטרור שמפעילות קבוצות שונות, שהפכו לאחרונה לקבוצות שוליים, איננו משנה את הצדק הבסיסי בדרישה של הפלסטינים להיות עם חופשי בארצם
מכאן נובע, שכל פעולה המגבילה את חירותם ושוללת את זכויותיהם של תושבי רצועת עזה, וזה כולל מצור ימי – איננה צודקת ואיננה מוסרית. לנוכח מצור כזה, מוצדק להתנגד, גם באלימות – למעט אלימות נגד אזרחים שאינם נושאים נשק. חיילי השייטת הם לוחמים מאומנים, וגם אם מישהו החליט בשבילם, משיקולים של תדמית בלבד, שלא להעלות נשק חם אל סיפון האוניה – הרי הם חיילים חמושים לכל דבר, שביכולתם להפעיל אלימות ואף להרוג, כפי שאכן עשו לצערנו הרב
לנוכח השתלטות בכוח על אוניה שמטרתה לפרוץ מצור בלתי צודק, יש לנוסעי האוניה כל זכות שבעולם להתנגד להשתלטות, גם בכוח. התקשורת בישראל, שהיא חופשית בימים רגילים אבל מתגייסת ל"שירות האומה" במצבי "חירום", התייצבה כאיש אחד, בניצוחו של דובר צה"ל, כדי ליצור מצג שווא. מי שצרך בימים אלה רק חדשות בעברית, קיבל את הרושם שנוסעי ספינות הסיוע ההומניטרי היו חמושים בנשק חם, ושכוונתם העיקרית הייתה להשתמש בו על מנת להרוג. בדרנים ודברנים המתחזים לעיתונאים, כמו הכתב הצבאי של הערוץ הראשון, רוני דניאל, תיארו את האירוע במילים "נשמעו יריות לעבר חיילי צה"ל, מה שמוכיח שעל הספינה היה נשק חם". מה שה"כתב" הזה שכח להזכיר הוא, שהנשק הזה נחטף מידי חיילי השייטת.
האמת היתה שונה בתכלית. האוניות היו עמוסות במצרכים חיוניים שנועדו לתושבי עזה, ולא היה על הספינה נשק חם. מקצת מנוסעי הספינה "מרמרה" אלה שהיו אמיצים ומיומנים דיים להתנגד להשתלטות הקטלנית של חיילי צה"ל, הצטיידו בכלי נשק פרימיטיביים, כמו אלות ומעט סכינים. איש לא ירה על חיילי צה"ל מנשק שהגיע בספינה. אכן, בעקבות תושייתם של קצתם של נוסעי הספינה, ובאומץ מדהים שכמעט שום אדם שאני מכיר לא היה מצליח לגייס – וזה כולל כמובן אותי – הם הצליחו לחטוף מספר כלי נשק מחיילי הקומנדו הקשוחים והמאומנים ביותר בעולם, ולהתנגד במשך זמן מה, תוך סיכון חיים וודאי.
באחד מאמצעי התקשורת שבחר לשמור על מידה של עצמאות, התפרסם ראיון עם אחד הפעילים, לוחם המארינס לשעבר
Kenneth O'Keefe
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3901776,00.html
אוקיף סיפר ששלושה חיילים נשבו על ידי הנוסעים למשך כחצי שעה, דבר שהיה יכול להתפתח לפיגוע מיקוח מביך עד אימה מבחינתה של ממשלת ישראל – אלמלא שוחררו השלושה, ביוזמת נוסעי הספינה, ללא פגע. לנוכח הנכונות של המפגינים לסכן את חייהם, בלחימה הרואית נגד לוחמי קומנדו ימי - די ברור ששום דבר לא מנע מהם לפגוע בחיילי השייטת השבויים, ששכבו בבטן האוניה כפותים ורועדים מפחד. העובדה שהמפגינים לא נרתעו מעימות אלים נגד חיילי קומנדו מאומנים, מוכיחה שלא החשש מפני הסתבכות עם השלטונות הישראליים מנע מהם לפגוע בשבויים. אני השתכנעתי מכנות דבריו של אוקיף, שטען בראיון שהם שחררו את השבויים מפני שלא באו כדי להרוג או לפגוע, אלא באמת כדי להעביר סיוע הומניטרי לפלסטינים. טענתה של ישראל, שניתן היה להעביר את הסיוע דרך שלטונות ישראל – מאבדת את אמינותה לנוכח ההתנהגות שאינה מעוררת אמון של ישראל במהלך הסכסוך, כמו הקפאת כספי המיסים הפלסטיניים, ההפרות המתמשכות של הסכמים, ועוד.
בעיני, מדהים ההבדל בין מידת הכנות והאותנטיות הנושבת מדבריו של אוקיף בראיון, לבין השקרים וחצאי האמיתות שפירסם דובר צה"ל. לאוקיף, שחטף מכות על הספינה, ולטענתו גם בעת שהיה במעצר, יש כל הסיבות להיות כועס וממורמר. אבל בראיון הוא נשמע רגוע וכמעט מפויס, ונימת דבריו עניינית ונטולת רוע. דובר צה"ל, לעומתו, תיאר אותו כ"שונא ישראל" שבא כדי לאמן לוחמים פלסטיניים. ממש, החמאס זקוק לקשישים ששרתו במארינס לפני 18 שנה כדי שיאמנו אותם. כמו כן כינה דובר צה"ל את המפגינים "שכירי חרב". איך אפשר לחשוב על מפגינים אלה כעל אנשי לגיון הזרים, שבאו לסכן את חייהם תמורת כסף? אין גבול לאבסורד

על כן, כל הדיבורים על מפגינים אלימים וחמושים, שבאו להילחם, ורק גבורתם של לוחמי השייטת מנעה זאת מהם, וגם הצילה את ישראל משבירת המצור על עזה – אין להם על מה לסמוך. להיפך, ההכנה הלקויה של המבצע, אפילו מבחינת המטרות שניסתה ישראל להשיג, וההרג שביצעו הלוחמים, רק גרמו לישראל מבוכה עולמית, בזיון ברמה הטקטית, ופגיעה חמורה במעמדה הבינלאומי, המעורער ממילא

ההנהגה הישראלית הכושלת שוב הוכיחה קוצר ראיה, חוסר תכנון, העדפה של הגישה הכוחנית על פני כל חלופה, לשון אחר – ההתנהגות הבריונית הרגילה של ארגון המסובך עד מעל לראשו בפרויקט של כיבוש, דיכוי, שלילת זכויות, וניסיון חסר תוחלת להחזיק במקל בשני קצותיו ביד אחת: גם לא להרפות מהכיבוש, וגם להצטייר, בעיני עצמו ובעיני זולתו, כגוף מוסרי, דמוקרטי ונאור. זה לא עבד מעולם, בשום מקום, לאורך זמן ארוך. ולכן סופו של הנסיון הנואל להיכשל גם במקרה הזה

Ping-Pong of Ideas, vol. 4

You May not be pro-Israel IF...

*by Moshe Phillips*

You may not be "Pro-Israel" if you question the "pro-Israel-ness" of people who don't agree with your opinions; if you think that being patriotic only means agreeing to the views of your government - that's actually a sign of Tyranny.

*Action Alert:** ** Support Passage of the Armenian Genocide
Resolution by US House of Representatives
*- The world kept silent during and after the genocide of almost 1.5
million Armenians by Turks, who are still denying it, during 1915-1917. This atrocity
was facilitated by international indifference and silence and paved
the way for the Holocaust!
And the state of Israel, "the only democracy in the middle east," every year, to these days, bans peaceful vigils in front of the Turkish embassy by Armenian Israeli citizens, because good relationships with Turkey is more important to the Israeli government than free speech.

*Food for Thought. **by Steven Shamrak*
The major sponsor of international Islamic terrorism, **Saudi
Arabia**, is an official 'best friend' of the * *United States**!
And why not, the US has carried out more terrorist attacks than any other country in history.
Similar statements can be made about *Israel* and its 60 years of so-called independence. It is time to regain our self-respect*!
...Which is another terrorist country.

(What have the oil rich Arab countries done to help Haiti and during other international disasters? Sponsoring international terrorism is the only thing they are good at!)
That's actually true.

Who is Real Self-hating Extremist? The State Attorney's Office has
instructed police to launch an investigation against journalist Natan
Zahavi after he had announced a cash prize to anyone who would smash
the face of settler or Haredi person who he said calls soldiers
"Nazis" during his radio program. (The desire of the Jewish left to
destroy their and Israel's Jewishness is treason of the highest degree
- Self-Hate must end!)
So you think that call soldiers "Nazis" is a sign of Jewishness, that must be protected?


No Apologies Expected. The Kuwaiti foreign minister Mohammad El Sabah
has been quoted as saying, ''the government of Israel is not normal,
and the person at its head is an imbecile and a nut case.''
This is something that more than 70% of the Israelis can agree on.

What is Vatican Hiding?
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html

Following Pope Benedict the 16th visit to the Great Synagogue in
Rome, Deputy Prime Minister Silvan Shalom called on the Vatican to
open its archives from the Holocaust era in order to reduce the
tension between Judaism and Christianity. (If the Vatican is so proud
of the actions of Pope Pius XII during Holocaust, why 60 years later
are the archives still closed and so the world is unable to
'appreciate' his 'saintly deeds'?)
AGREED

Ping-Pong of Ideas, vol. 3 (this time with Mr. Shamrak)

* The Department of Homeland Security, created to defend the nation
after the Sept. 11 Islamic terror attacks, has dramatically shifted
its focus, earlier this year advising police nationwide to watch out
for "right-wing extremists"...
When your government carries out anti-democratic measures against some people, It really sucks when the same measures are turned back to you, doesn't it?... (I'm against political persecution on all sides).

* Five Gitmo terrorists - the worst of the worst, including confessed
9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed will be tried in civilian court
in New York City, offering these mega-terrorists the worldwide stage
they crave from which to spread their ideology...
Justice for all - that sucks too, eh? I guess you prefer "Justice for all Christians and Jews".

* Why does Department of Homeland Security chief Janet Napolitano
oppose referring to Hamas as a terrorist organization?
Because that would require referring to the Israeli military by the same terminology.

Jews are still Used as Deflectors of Public Opinion. The United
States pledged to be ''even more committed this year'' to resolving
the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, warning that any further delay would
only hurt the interests of all parties involved. ''We know that the
Palestinians deserve a state to fulfil their aspirations... So we're
going to be even more committed this year'' Secretary of State Hillary
Clinton said.
Don't worry, those are empty words. The Obama administration will continue a long time tradition of being cheated by the Israeli government on "freeze of building in settlements" and alike.

*Quote of the Week: * "The PLO did not represent a state and was no
political authority. Most leaders of the PLO were from the elsewhere
in the region, Arafat for example was an Egyptian, Faizal Husseini
(Arafat's chief assistant) was from Iraq.
David Ben Gurion was from Plonsk, Russia (now Poland); Golda Meir was from Milwaukee, US (born in Kiev, Ukraine); Menachem Begin was from Brisk, Russia (now Belarus). Actually, none of the Jewish political leaders before Rabin was born in Israel.

Political Stupidity in IDF Must End. Leftist activist Edna Canetti
has used her presence on Channel 2's Big Brother program to make
political comments and attack the IDF's policy in Judea and Samaria.
Now it turns out that the Defense Ministry has invited her to speak to
disabled IDF veterans and share her views with them. (The IDF have
been systematically hindering propagation of Zionist ideals in the
army. Soldiers must know what they fight for!)
This is bullshit, and it proves that you have never been even one day close to any IDF base (and I am suspecting that neither to any military base, for that matter).
Mrs. Canetti made a comparison between the genocide in Jericho in 13th century B.C by the Jews, and the Holocaust She later on took it back and apologized. I actually don't know what she had to apologize for - according to the Bible, the Jews did kill all the people of Jericho, men women and children, just like the Nazis did.

Today, only around 45,000 Palestinians have work permits (they must say a big "thank you" for that) .
So you think that one has to say "thank you" for getting the very basic human rights. That's pure racism.

*Look Who is Complaining.
*Israel publicly snubbed Turkey's ambassador over his country's persistent criticism of the Jewish state and the screening of a Turkish television drama depicting Israeli security forces as kidnapping children and shooting old men. The Turkish government protested about the treatment of Turkish ambassador to Israel, Ahmet Oguz Celikkol, by Deputy Foreign embassador Danny Ayalon. "Israel must obey the standards of international diplomatic manners". (Since the election of Turkish Prime Minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey has
repeatedly criticized and snubbed Israel . An occasional snub from Israel is a healthy treatment for enemies of the Jews.)
Even in Israel, there is a general consensus (majority of opinion), that this incident caused a HUGE damage to Israel's foreign affairs.

The Oslo Accord, Settlements, and anti-Semitism

Dear readers,

Here is another interesting correspondence that I had with Mr. Shamrak:

Me: "Check out the recent increase in anti-Semitism (the real one), it's all because of the occupation."

Shamrak: "The sharp rise of anti-Semitism began immediately after the Oslo agreement!"

First, that's another "inaccuracy" of yours (this is in order not to say the L word).

Check the chart below:

The chart above was taken from the Anti-Defamation League web site: www.adl.org , which you should consider a reliable source. I met with their Director, Mr. Abe Foxman. This is by no means a Leftist organization.

The chart clearly shows a decline in anti-semitist events, following the year 1993 (when the Oslo process began). There is, however, a clear rise after the year 2000, the year that the negotiations failed, and the Second Intifada started, during which the Israeli military killed hundreds of innocent Palestinians.

So, with all my resentment to anti-semitism, like any other form of racism - I can't blame them for being antisemitic.

Not only did the occupation not subside, but on the contrary - since 1993 the number of Jewish settlers has grown by 150%, as of 2008! That's 2.5 times over:

(source: Israel Bureau of Statistics).

In addition, it's interesting to look at the correlation between Anti-Semitic incidents, and the number of victims of Israeli terror, among Palestinians.

After 1993, there has been a steady decline in casualties; which fits well the trend of anti-semitist events. But then, after 2000, the number of dead Palestinians has sharply increased again. Here are the data:

Between 1987 (first Intifada) and 1993, 1,100 Palestinians were killed by the IDF, and another 62 by Israeli civilians. Among those, 241 and 13, respectively, were minors under 17. That's an average of 157 and 9 killed per year, respectively. Clearly, many if not most of the dead were innocent people.

After 1993 and on to 2000, however, the number dropped to 39 per year (a reduction of 75%). Notice, however, that the Israeli civilians (most of them settlers) who killed Palestinians, were not so impressed by the Oslo accord, and their average per year remained at around 7.

Then, between 2001 and 2008, a staggering number of 4,791 Palestinians were killed by the IDF, that's 532 per year.

No wonder that the Palestinians hated us more than the usual, before 1993 and after 2000.

check out also this:

www.ifamericansknew.org

regards,

Avner

An answer to Steven Shamrak, vol. 5

*Obama Appointed Self-Hating Anti-Semitism Czar.

*by Aaron Klein***

In her first major interview since becoming President Obama's newly
appointed anti-Semitism czar (it took Obama a while to find an
ideologically compatible self-hating Jew to fill the position), Hannah
Rosenthal blasted the Israeli government. She characterized as "most
unfortunate" a decision by Michael Oren, Israel's ambassador to the
United States, to not attend the annual dinner in September of J
Street, a (self-appointed) lobby group that is mostly led by
left-leaning (anti-Israel and anti-Jewish)
here's another thinking-challenged demagogue, who can't comprehend the basic fact of life, that there could be smart people who think different than him.

Israelis and receives funds
from Arab and Muslim Americans... J Street supports talks with Hamas,
a terrorist group
Not more terrorist than the IDF
whose charter seeks the destruction of Israel. The
group opposes sanctions against Iran and is harshly critical of
Israeli offensive anti-terror military actions.
That’s because the "military actions" are even worse terrorist actions than those of the Hamas.

Regarding a recent UN report, accusing Israel of war crimes during
the Jewish state's defensive war in Gaza last year, Rosenthal told
Haaretz, "it is not anti-Semitic to look at a certain policy of Israel
and say - I disagree with it. Half of the population in Israel isn't
anti-Semitic by not agreeing with policies." (If this is so, will she
call for the investigation of war crimes allegedly committed by the US
army in Afghanistan and Iraq?)
Of course!


*When civilians actively have been supporting Islamic terrorism
against the state of Israel and actively participated in or covered
the hostile actions of enemies during the war, as they have been doing
in Afghanistan and Iraq. Therefore they became * enemy combatants
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_combatant>
. Killing them is not a war crime! The UN's high-priced international
lawyers know this, but anti-Semitic international politicians are
still waging an anti-Israel smear campaign!
By this definition (to which I don't agree), most of the Jewish residents of Israel are "enemy combatants" and are entitled to be killed.


Arabs and Druze are Most Murderous Israelis. While Arab and Druze
Israelis constitute 20% of the country's population, they accounted
for 59% of the country's murders. Out of 121 murders in Israel in
2009, 71 were committed by or among Arabs and Druze. The vast majority
of criminal bombings occurred in the minority sector, particularly the
Arab sector, where 85 events of planting bombs and 65 of throwing
grenades at targets were recorded
By whom? Those are sheer lies.



In Spite of Having Oil. A report published by the United Nations
Development Program and the Arab League shows that 40% of people in
Arab countries live under the poverty line, a figure that has not
changed over the past 20 years. In addition, unemployment among young
people in the Arab world ranks among the highest in the world.
This is actually true.

Message to anti-Israel Objectors.

by Steven Shamrak

You would like to call and see yourself as genuine and objective
supporters of a just cause but you never worry about the factual
correctness of the anti-Israel information you are using. Quite often
you knowingly using forged information and even deliberately make fake
accusations or twist the facts in order to make an anti-Israel smear.
When we show you factual proof that so-called Palestinians are a fake
nation and are actually the occupiers of Jews' land, you dismiss it as
Zionist propaganda.
No, we dismiss it based on real facts, not wishful thinking. The Palestinians are here and nobody can tell any group of people that they are not a nation, if they feel that they are.
Years of suicide bombings and rocket attacks
against Jews in Israel are unable to shake off your support for
terrorists
that's because of years of massive killings of innocent Palestinians by the Israeli "defense" forces.

If you are not anti-Semites, why don't you care so much about the
occupation of: Tibet by China; Basque region by Spain and France;
Northern Ireland by the United Kingdom; Kurdistan by five countries;
Kashmir by India and Pakistan; Western Sahara by Morocco? Where is
your concern about the fate of refugees created by the war in Congo,
the genocidal policy of the Sudanese government and so on?
Yes we do, there is no contradiction.

Avner Efendowicz

An answer to Steven Shamrak, vol. 4

Dear readers,

I guess you know the routine already… here goes:

IDF Can when Politicians Want. Security Services in partnership with

soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) killed the murderers of
Rabbi Meir Avshalom Chai. All three were convicted terrorists who had
been committed to and later released from Israeli prisons.
This is actually killing without trial, which is considered a severe crime in any civilized country, except, of course, Israel.

*Goldstone Report Works Both Ways.* Fifteen Israelis who were injured
by Kassam rockets from Gaza Arab terrorists during Operation Cast Lead
have filed a lawsuit against Hamas in a Belgian court. The Israelis
are demanding that Belgian authorities issue international arrest
warrants for senior Hamas terrorists, including Khaled Mashaal, Ismail
Haniyeh, Mahmoud a-Zahar, Ahmad Jabbari, and Muhammad Deff. Part of
the case rests upon the Goldstone report, which ruled that Kassam
rocket fire by Hamas was a violation of international law, and that
the court could not ignore the case.
Good luck!

*Swastikas on Walls of Ancient Synagogue near Hevron.** * A group of
Jews, in a rare visit to the ruins of an ancient synagogue in a PA
controlled village southwest of Hevron, was shocked to discover that
swastikas had been scrawled on the walls. (No international outrage.
It was not even covered by the mainstream news! Why is Arab/Muslim
thuggery not news worthy?)
Interestingly, no word from you about anti-Arab and anti-Islamic graffiti, which is left intact for years on the walls of Arab neighborhoods, whose legal residents were forced out by the apartheid Israeli regime.


The Result of Non-Jewish Migration and Political Apathy. 1. The
government discussed imposing limitations on the sale of alcoholic
beverages. Under the proposed rules, individuals under 21 will not be
able to purchase alcoholic beverages, and no sales will be permitted
after 11 PM. In addition, drinking in public places would be
prohibited, and alcohol will be sold only in specially licensed
stores. 2. Five men were stabbed in a mass brawl that broke out in
Kiryat Gat early on Saturday a week ago over music blasting from a
car. ''The husband (of kiosk owner) was stabbed and seriously wounded.
A number of passersby came to his aid, and four more people were
stabbed,'' said a police spokeswoman.
So you are suggesting that only non-Jews drink and commit crimes? How low can you go, you racist low-life?

Hypocrisy of the Headlines.* *

*Israel feels tarnished as critics apply apartheid tag...

* - Why don't Arabs feel 'tarnished' wearing the well deserved tag of
blood-thirsty terrorists, anti-crusaders bigots and heroin pushers?
Where are the headlines about it?
Because there are equally blood-thirsty terrorists among the Jews in this land.

*Opposition to Rabin Bank Note.** *Bank of Israel was asked by Land
of Israel activists to reconsider its decision to put the portrait of
former Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin on bank notes: "Let it be clearly
understood that Rabin's image was controversial... Rabin caused
inestimable and indescribable damage to the state of Israel." (And it
is conveniently forgotten that Yitzhak Rabin was a Haganah commander
who carried out the attack on the Irgun weapon supply boat, the
Altalena, killing and wounding Jews and sinking the boat, at the time
when Jews needed weapons most!)
This is exactly why the late Rabin deserves a note. He fought against Jewish terrorists who were responsible for the killings of hundreds of innocent Arabs during the period 1931 - 1938. All documented by the Jewish underground Etze"l itself, in the book "Chronicles of the War for Independence," by Yaakov Amrami and Arieh Melitz, 1951.

Avner Efendowicz