Showing posts with label peace. Show all posts
Showing posts with label peace. Show all posts

Sunday, December 1, 2013

Yet another answer to Ms. Max Coutinho

Dear Ms. Continho,
First, I must apologize to you, Ms. Continho, for not recognizing that you belonged to the better gender. I should have noticed this from your language, sorry about that…

To the point: the majority of Palestinians elected Hamas (in the Gaza Strip only!), not because the majority of Palestinians have become so fanatically religious or anti-peace (although the Israeli government is giving them all the reasons to be so), but – because Hamas, in addition to being a terrorist organization, is also a welfare organization and jobs provider. This is much like the Shas party of Israel, which is an ultra-orthodox, anti-democratic political party (they don’t allow women in their roster; they are being led by an orthodox Rabbi strictly according to the Jewish Halachic rules – or so they say, I wish that it was even partially true; etc.); their supporters are not necessarily religious at all (they are what we call “traditionalists”), but they still elected this party, for providing long education days with hot meals to their children, and jobs to the parents.
In short, electing Hamas doesn’t make the Palestinian public any less innocent, compared to the Israeli public which elected this evil and dishonest government.
As to your point, that Hamas are using innocent people as “human shields”: this is much like the Jewish settlers, who put their women and children’s lives at risk, by living in towns and villages provocatively built inside and far out in Palestinian territory. Not to mention, that the IDF (the Israeli military) is “cowardly using” (as you said about Hamas) local residents, uninvolved in combat, as human shields during search missions. This procedure was eventually banned by Israeli Supreme Court, but has been used nonetheless occasionally.

As for your (own) interpretation to the Declaration of San Remo: well it is, in my humble opinion, completely wrong. Here’s why: the November 2, 1917 declaration (known as “the Balfour Declaration”), upon which San Remo’s was based, called for “a national home for the Jewish people”, and as you rightly mentioned, must not “prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities”. If you are so meticulous in reading the civil and religious rights as not pertaining to “national aspirations”, then you must be just as meticulous as to acknowledge, that a “national home” does not necessarily mean an independent state! Because, although the Israeli government has long ago acknowledged the right of the Palestinian minority for self-government, it has always done its best to deprive them form giving this a political implementation, but rather fulfil this be some kind of “autonomy”, whatever that means. Don’t get me wrong, I am all for a Jewish State in the land of Israel; I have fought for it, and I brought my boys up to do the same. But if the 1917 declaration does not imply a state for the Palestinians, then honesty obliges that it does not imply a Jewish state, just as well. Not to mention, that the end goal, “to protect the civil and religious rights” as you said, has never been fully achieved – as an official government committee (the Or Committee, 2000) has clearly stated.

Fast forwarding to 1947: the UN resolution, taught in Jewish school as “calling for the establishment of a Jewish State”, actually called for establishing two states, Jewish and Palestinian, the last part omitted from the curriculum for some reason.
But I will give you that (something that the Right-wingers fail to do to us on the Left), that there could be an interpretation to the legal issue, which is different than mine. My point it simple: the legal situation is not what really matters (and this is what I meant by saying “irrelevant” in my post). Because, even if the Palestinians do not have the right for their own state, from the international law point of view – then what do we do with them? If we don’t give them full civil rights (which you actually agreed to do, and that includes the right to vote – which would lead to a Muslim Prime Minister pretty soon, and, in many people’s view – the end of the Zionist project) – if we don’t give them that and hold them as second-class residents, then Israel cannot be truly regarded as a democratic state. We can’t expel them, we can’t hold them occupied – so what do we do? The only answers I have heard so far from fellows in the Right are – Israel Trust in God almighty, or that we should just wait for them to learn to accept us and the wonderful life we generously give them here, or that they will just go away.

Regarding Apartheid: No, Ms. Continho, about 2 million Palestinians are NOT allowed to vote for the Israeli government. Can’t you see that you defeat your own argument? – You claim that the Palestinians do not deserve their own state, yet at the same time you exclude them from the Israeli public, when you claim that in Israel, everybody has the right to vote! So it’s either you are against a Palestinian State, which renders all Palestinians under Israeli control lack the basic right to control their own fate, or – you claim that voting is free for all in Israel, by which the occupied territories are excluded from Israel.
And regarding sexual relations – it is not illegal to have inter-race relationship; but almost anybody who will try to date somebody from the different religion will soon find out that it’s nearly impossible. For this, by the way, I blame both sides and not only the Jews.

For your knowledge, I do acknowledge “the fact that the Palestinians murder civilians”, and I don’t “refuse to criticize them for that poor approach”. In fact, in most Arab countries, thousands of people have been murdered and abused by their own people, and I attribute this to the poor moral standards in effect in those countries, especially in Syria but also some in Palestine. This by the way has nothing to do with Islam, but with the nasty and cruel regimes in those countries in modern times. In short, those who did it are primitive criminals, justifying their crimes by a distorted and inhuman interpretation of the Islam, a phenomenon which, I must say, is very common in the modern era in many Muslim societies. But this can’t justify killing civilians by individual Jews (like Dr. Baruch Goldstein, who is considered a martyr by a great part of the fundamental Jewish right wing), but also by the Israeli military!
I don’t know how you came to put this thought in my head and words in my keyboard, that I did not criticize the Arab side. This is either a remarkable demonstration of mind-reading (albeit totally wrong), or – a demagogic argument, very typical, I must say, to the right wing rhetoric.

To claim that “the international law says that this disputed piece of land belongs to the Jewish People, period” is nothing more than reducing the argument to a level that nobody can argue, because you, the knows-all, have put a period at the end of your sentence. If you had enough intellectual honesty, you would admit that this is just your own interpretation, which I do respect, but is just as good as the opposite one.
If you conclude by your interpretation to Ismail Haniah, that “the Palestinians do not want peace and they will never recognize the Jewish State” then you show another remarkable ability of predicting the future; and in seriousness – a not-so-remarkable manner by which you comprehend the situation, if you think that Haniah represents the majority of Palestinians.

With all due respect,
Avner Efendowicz


Saturday, November 23, 2013

An Answer to Ms. Max Coutinho, on Israeli Occupation of Palestine

Dear Ms. Coutinho,

As before, I would like to address your claims one at a time, which necessitates a separate post. Please refer to my new post, following this comment.

I don’t argue the right of Israel to defend itself against enemies. In fact, I was a combat soldier and officer in the Israeli military, and so have been my two boys (one of them non-officer in fact). However, I can’t agree to your phrase “at all costs”, which may point out to immoral measures. Please clarify if this is not the case: does “at all costs” include the cost of the lives of innocent Palestinian people? Or you think that there are no innocent among them? Please clarify.

I am not focusing on one side only, I am well aware that some Palestinians have committed terrible crimes. I am just puzzled and taken by the fact that this is being abused by so many right-wing speakers, to justify the wrong doings of the Israeli (I should say actually, the Zionist side). One evil cannot justify another evil. And the actions of the Israeli government at this moment in history are evil, to a great extent. The definitely don’t “abide by international agreements” in many cases, for which I can give you a few examples.

According to the International Law, “the territories” are truly occupied. The may be “disputed” as for their political future, and there is no dispute among international legal entities that they have been occupied in a war, and therefore there is no freedom and protection of the law for all who are living there – only for the Jews. Did we mention Apartheid? What is Apartheid if not separate law for different people, based on their ethnicity? Further to that, even the greatest friend of Israel never recognized its right to build the settlements, and this is the reason that the US sees even the Capital of Israel as part of the Settlement system, which is why they won’t build their embassy there!

Yes, I have read the part of the Forth Geneva Convention which is relevant. There is a dispute if Israel has the right to build settlements in the occupied territories, according to that convention. Section 49 of the Convention states that an occupier cannot transfer people into the occupied territory. Israel has signed this document, but stated that it didn’t apply to the West Bank, because – well, because it never belonged to any country. Some excuse.

On top of all that, the Israeli government, this is my interpretation as a resident of this country), is using the Settlement system in order to prevent any possible future solution; so claiming that it has the right to settle there “until its final status is resolved” is a bitter irony. Even the Israeli supreme court has acknowledged that at least some of the settlements (such as “East Matityahu”) have been built to annex Palestinian territories, and not as the State claimed in court (which was refuted by military experts), that it was built for security reasons.

What I call “irrelevant” is not because I can’t explain it (as your demagogic rhetoric suggests), but because, if Palestinians lived in those territories 100 years, 1 year or one day before the Jews came in – is irrelevant; you can’t kick them out just because the ancient Romans kicked my ancestors out – that’s not the Palestinian’s fault.

Again, your assumption that I “get a sense of deep joy when you see young Arab boy throwing rocks at Israeli vehicles and murdering people” is just another sign of your demagogia. Can’t you criticize your government’s action without feeling joy when people are murdered?

By stating that I said “ the Jews have no claim to their own land” you are, again, putting in my mouth words which I never said (which is quite typical to right-wing advocates, I must say). Did I say that? Or did I say that there are two nations here who are fighting for a piece of land which most of them already agree that it can be shared (read the polls, and check out the Geneva Initiative: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Initiative

or The People's Voice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_People%27s_Voice)

You will find there the same guidelines for any future solution which has been around for more than a decade now, but the Israeli government is constantly refusing even to have one discussion about it. Strangely enough, it is supported by the big majority of Jews and Palestinians (according to polls), but one of the most stable Israeli governments ever doesn’t acknowledge them! Strange you say? Absolutely, it’s one of the mysteries of Israeli politics. More on that in the next post on my blog.

Tuesday, August 26, 2008

Ping-Pong of Ideas, vol. 2

- 'The Way" is virtually empty.
אני לא מכחיש שמספר הפעילים הפלסטינים שמוכנים להתפשר קטן בהרבה ממספר היהודים. זהו מצב צפוי במסגרת של סכסוך לא סימטרי, שבו צד אחד הוא המדכא והשבע וצד אחר הוא המדוכא. בצד השבע באופן טבעי יימצאו יותר אנשים שיש להם מה להפסיד, ומכיוון שהגיעו להכרה שהדיכוי לא יוכל להמשך לנצח - הם מנסים לעשות משהו כדי להפסיקו

The “Combatants for peace” is by Arab Israelis. Big deal. Let's see them do it on the other side of the fence.
לא נכון. אם היית קורא את העדויות היית רואה שמדובר בפלסטינים מהשטחים שהיו בעבר "מחבלים", כלומר לוחמים לעצמאות פלסטין, שבחלק מהזמן פגעו כנראה גם באזרחים, בדומה לחיילי צה"ל

- The 'Arab peace initiative' still speaks on the refugees, which was a deal breaker in Camp David. Plus I don't recall Hamas or Fatah supporting it.
נוח לישראלים שרוצים להמשיך את הכיבוש להיתלות בנושא הפליטים, שלדעתי הוא שולי וניתן לפתרון. קרא את יוזמת ז'נבה שנתמכת ע"י ציבור פלסטיני ויהודי רחב מאד

Again, can you point me to ANY evidence of a Peace Movement within the Palestinians? And lets avoid those instances where 'peace' is used to describe the ultimate goal where Israel ceases to exist and is replaced by a bi-national, secular, "democratic" state. Yeah right…
הפלסטינים היו שמחים אם היינו נעלמים מכאן, וכל אדם בעל רגישות יכול להבין זאת. אנחנו האחראים העיקריים לאסון שלהם. אבל - כבני אדם פרגמטיים רובם מבינים שזה לא יקרה, ולכן הם מוכנים לפשרה. בדיוק כמו רוב הישראלים, שהיו שמחים אם הפלסטינים היו נעלמים. במובן הזה, ורק במובן הזה, הפלסטינים היו רוצים שישראל תיעלם. אבל לא במובן שהמטרה שלהם באשר ליוזמות השלום השונות (ז'נבה, היוזמה הסעודית, מיתווה קלינטון) היא להשמיד את ישראל. זוהי מאנטרה שאנחנו משננים לעצמנו כדי להתחמק מהתמודדות עם הבעיות האמיתיות - ההתנחלויות והכיבוש

I believe the Arabs. Period. They are very consistent and very open about their mission. It is you who refuses to believe them.
אתה לא באמת "מאמין לערבים, נקודה." זוהי סתם רטוריקה ריקה. להאמין לערבים, נקודה פירושו להאמין לכל מה שהם אומרים. רבים מאד מהם אומרים שהם רוצים לחיות בשלום לצד ישראל. אבל לזה אתה לא מאמין


Show me the number of Palestinians that were PURPOSELY targeted by Israelis. Not those who were killed during riots. I am referring to who sat to eat dinner at a restaurant and were blown into pieces.
זה לה משנה בכלל. הנסיון להמנע מפגיעה באזרחים הוא פריבילגיה של החזק. לחלש יש פחות כלים להיאבק, ולמרות שאני לחלוטין נגד טרור, אני חייב להודות שהוא יותר אפקטיבי מאשר מאבק לא אלים. עובדה, ללא טרור הם לא היו משיגים כלום
גם "מחבל" מהחמאס יכול לטעון שהוא לא רוצה להרוג אזרחים, אבל שום דרך אחרת לא עובדת. מבחינה לוגית, זוהי טענה שקולה לטענה של טייס או לוחם עברי כחול עיניים, שמצטדק שהוא לא מתכוון להרוג אזרחים אבל אין לו ברירה. לדעתי שתי הטענות לא נכונות

And about the massive immigration to "Palestine"... Have you checked the demographics in the mid1800's? The evidence suggests that the land was sparsely populated. It is more likely that Arab immigration to Palestine was instigated by the economic prosperity created by the Jews.
זוהי הטענה הכי חלשה של הימין (אני חושב שיש לימין גם טענות חזקות). מה זה משנה? אם היו כאן פלסטינים יום אחד לפני העליה הראשונה, אין לנו שום זכות לגרש אותם

Why don't you spend some of your energy encouraging the Palestinians to pursue peace? I think that will be more cost effective...
מבחינת עלות לתועלת, המאמצים שלי מתבזבזים באותה מידה. כשם שאין לי יכולת לשכנע אף לא ישראלי אחד, כך אני מעריך שאין מה לנסות לשכנע אותם