Dear readers,
Below is another response to yet another article I received by email, from Mr. Steven Shamrak.
Arab-Israel Conflict – Forgotten Facts! – Intro1
The term "Palestinian" is itself a masterful twisting of history. To portray themselves as indigenous, Arab settlers adopted the name of an ancient Mediterranean tribe, the Philistines (“Invaders” in Hebrew),
This is BS. There is no connection between "Plishtim" and "Polshim".
1. Nationhood and
So?!
2. Since 1272 B.C.E. the Jews have had dominion over the land for up to 1,000 years with a continuous Jewish presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.
So?!
3. The only Arab dominion since the Arab invasion and conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years.
So?!
4. King David founded the city of
So?!
6.
Irrelevant.
7. Jews pray facing
Don’t confuse Muslims with Palestinians. Many Palestinians are Christians. How is this relevant?
15. Did you know that
Did you know that the
How is this relevant? The only thing that matters is - that there were Palestinians in the land before the Zionists came.
16. In 1947, the Jewish state huddled on 18% of the original British Mandate land. The Jews accepted it gratefully. The Arabs rejected it with a vengeance and seven Arab states immediately declared war against
That is actually True.
17. In 1948, the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave
Not entirely true. Arab leaders did urge them to leave, but many were forced to leave by the Zionist forces.
18. Some 850,000 Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab countries, due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.
They don't want to go back there, they don't see them as their homes.
19. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is claimed to be around 630,000 (where did they get this number?) maybe from the same source which gave you the number 1272 B.C. (nobody knows that for sure).
Propagandists of the whole World, Unite!
24. There is only one Jewish state. There are 60 Muslim countries, including 22 Arab nations.
This is like saying that there are 105 Christian countries, and 10 English-speaking nations.
You are nothing but a racist if you include all Muslims in the same category.
25. The PLO's Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel.
Not true.
26. Pan-Arabism or the doctrine of Muslim Caliphate declares that all land that used to belong to Muslims must be returned to them. Thus,
Excellent example of how irrelevant all this is. Is there a war between
From: Steven Shamrak
ReplyDeleteTo: avner efendowicz
Sent: Wed, December 16, 2009 1:25:59 AM
Subject: Re: Arab-Israel Conflict – Forgotten Facts! – Reply
Dear Avner,
Please, ask yourself:
1. How many Muslims do you know how defend right of the Jews with the same vigore as you have been their 'rights'?
Dear Steven,
I am a Jew no worse and no better than any other Jew. Therefore, I will answer with a question:
how many Muslims do you know at all? there are over a billion of them. do you know enough of them to ask this rhetoric question, which really means "there are no Muslims, or there are very few, who are moral enough so as to defend the rights of non-Muslims".
2. Why you, Jews, care more about others than your own?
I do care about my own, therefore I want Israel to stop being an occupier and start living to its original Jewish values.
Happy Hanukah!
I stopped celebrating Hanukah once I understood the real meaning of it. but nonetheless, happy Hanukah to you too.
Avner
From: Steven Shamrak
ReplyDeleteTo: avner efendowicz
Sent: Wed, December 16, 2009 1:47:28 AM
Subject: Re: Arab-Israel Conflict – Forgotten Facts! – Reply2
Re: "how many Muslims do you know at all? there are over a billion of them. do you know enough of them to ask this rhetoric question, which really means "there are no Muslims, or there are very few, who are moral enough so as to defend the rights of non-Muslims". - In phycology it could be called "deflection" - avoidance to answer and face reality, I regularly search net and view the new. None of them, even so called Moderate support Jews/Israel.
My reply:
If I was an Arab, I wouldn't support any state which oppresses and carries out acts of state terror, on any group of people, let alone from my own religion and culture. Just as one example, I can quote Mr. Ehud Barak, Israel's secretary of defense, who said: "If I was a Palestinian, I would become a terrorist" (as if he did not become one being a Jew).
However, many Muslims do condemn the terror carried out by Arabs against Jews, as well as they condemn terror acts carried out by Jews against Arabs. If you are so committed to facts, then you must be aware that the latter happen in much bigger numbers.
To your biased and respectless article, I already answered. You don't seem to have much "analytical intellect" if you argue that we, the liberals, are self haters.
Avner
Mr Avner,
ReplyDeleteAlthough it is true that many Muslims do condemn terrorist acts against Jews, Christians and others, they do not come to the streets to decry it (and yes, I know many Muslims and I have Muslims in my family); yet they will hit the streets whenever Israel defends itself of terror attacks and of acts of war. I didn't see them hitting the streets to defend the Christians of South Sudan were being slaughtered by Muslims from Sudan (who, funded by Arab nations, wanted Sudan Zorka free - i.e. Free of Black Africans).
From what I see in this post (which was shared with me) you are as biased as Mr Shamrak seems to be to you. And some of your highlighted replies to his discourse are immature at best - I mean, who answers historical facts with "So?" and "It's irrelevant"? You remind me of the teens who answer the "Why?" question with "Because"...
Lines of thought like "Is there a war between Spain and any Arab country? People can have aspirations to every crazy idea, but they can live in peace at the same time because they leave their aspirations at home when they go to do business with other people" go to show how awfully ignorant you are about Radical Islamism and their Global Caliphate Doctrine - I suggest you roam through some Al-Qaeda sites and forums (check out the late Osama Bin Laden's videos and learn what he said about Spain). And before you feel to yourself "Al-Qaeda is not a country" I would suggest you learn concepts like State-Sponsored Terrorism (in this context, Arab Nations use Terror groups to wage their wars while keeping a margin of deniability). About them leaving "their aspirations at home when they go to do business w/ other people"...I wondering whether you slept through 1993 or 2001?
You are a "pro-Palestinian" Jew (based on your own words)...Mazel Tov - although if you were really a Pro-Palestinian chap you would be encouraging them (through your blog) to develop themselves in the land they possess with the billions of dollars they receive in aid, instead of investing them in rockets and in terror training camps.
Mr Shamrak (whose site I am going to visit next) seems to have gotten to your wits...
Cheers
Mr. Coutinho,
ReplyDeleteI shall not fall to the rhetoric which is unfortunately for you guys, so typical to right-wing speakers, and I will not call you 'ignorant' without knowing you. I will say this: it is true that human rights situation is slightly better in Israel, where I live, than it is in most Arab countries. To those who get comfort out of this, good luck. It is unfortunately very typical to you guys in the Right to not use to-the-point arguments, when faced with criticism; but rather, to point out that it is worse in other places. To me, this is partially or wholly admitting that we in the Left, are right about the criticism, and that you have nothing to answer to the point of the matter.
On top of that, the fact that Arab citizens take to the streets "whenever Israel defends itself of terror attacks and of acts of war" as you say, is very much understood in light of the terrorist activity done by the Israeli military (and I am an Israeli military retired officer, as well as my two sons), which is worse, by its fatal results, than any terrorist acts by the Palestinian organizations. To me, the IDF is no less a terrorist organization than the Hamas is - considering that the IDF is also engaged in activities which are not Terror, just as much as the Hamas is.
My answers to Mr. Shamrak were "it's irrelevant," because he, much like most Right-wingers, uses irrelevant arguments. It's a shame that you, again, didn't address my arguments to the point, but rather likened them to children lingo with no reasoning. It's irrelevant to say that the Palestinians have immigrated to this region just one day before we the Zionists came - because they were here before. It's irrelevant to bring historical evidence that they have not been a Nation a few decades back - because they declare themselves as one now.
I know "concepts like State-Sponsored Terrorism," I live in the State of Israel after all, which is sponsoring terror carried out by the IDF.
Best wishes,
Avner
Mr Avner,
DeleteI will have to partition my reply into two parts.
PART I
"and I will not call you 'ignorant' without knowing you."
You already have.
It is true that many in the Right Wing do take issues with criticism (they often get all worked up); however you guys on the Left Wing of the political spectrum are not better - at all. Just read your reply to my comment and analyse it properly: you didn't exactly use "to-the-point arguments" either. You even deflected some importants points like: Arabs/Muslims being utterly bias and prone to victimisation when they are on to eradicate Black Africans from their own land; Radical Islamism and the Global Caliphate Doctrine; and most importantly, the fact that Pro-Palestinians never do anything to promote Palestinian advancement in the territories Fatah/PLO control (to prove that they can have a state of their own and live in peace by Israel's side).
Putting "Israeli military" and "terrorism" in the same sentence is an oxymoron by the very definition of terrorism:
"Terrorism is the intentional use of, or threat to use, violence against civilians or against civilian targets, by non-state actors, in order to attain political aims based on three elements: the essence of the activity, the aim of the activity is always political (i.e. in the absence of a political goal, the activity in quest will not be defined as terrorism) and the targets are civilians (i.e. acts are purposely directed at civilians)."
The Israeli military does its job when defending Eretz Yisrael against Hybrid Terrorist Organisations such as Hamas and Fatah/PLO. The same way any other military forces, around the world, defend their respective nations against any threat.
Congratulations to and your kids for having served in the IDF: did you serve in utter loyalty to your country?
When you say "by its fatal results" you speak of casualties of conflicts caused by the fact that Hybrid Palestinian Terrorist Organisations use their civilians as human shields, thus, violating the rule 5 of the international humanitarian law (IHL)?
Question: when Hamas and PLO (and their many derivative terrorist groups) use women and children as human shields, while at the same time throwing rockets at Israeli civilian targets (violating, therefore, the rule 1 of the IHL "The parties to the conflict must at all times distinguish between civilians and combatants. Attacks may only be directed against combatants. Attacks must not be directed against civilians."), should the IDF stand still and not strike back? In order to protect Palestinian civilians (who allow their rulers to use them as a shield/target) should the IDF put in peril Israeli civilians?
DeletePART II
Since when historical facts (i.e. a people's history and identity) are irrelevant, Mr Avner? And how could I have addressed arguments such as "It's irrelevant" and "So?" without stooping to the same level of immaturity displayed when you addressed/replied to Mr Shamrak?
"It's irrelevant to say that the Palestinians have immigrated to this region just one day before we the Zionists came - because they were here before."
Is it irrelevant or the Left wants to make it irrelevant out of political convenience?
History says that Jews were in Greater Israel before Islam even came to existence: yes or no? If yes, then that Land is historically their Homeland - no matter what. If no, then why was there a mandate (internationally acknowledged and legal) to restore that land to its Historical and Lawful owners: the Jews?
"It's irrelevant to bring historical evidence that they have not been a Nation a few decades back - because they declare themselves as one now."
The law works with evidence and if evidence is presented and a case is properly made, then as much as they declare themselves a nation (even if under false pretenses), I am not sure it will make a difference, Mr Avner.
Living in Medinat Yisrael doesn't necessarily mean you know concepts such as the one mentioned. You benefit from all the positive things the State of Israel has to offer and yet fight (or seem to be fighting) to hand it over to the enemy - in the name of what?
Have a great week ahead.
Cheers
"You even deflected some importants points like: Arabs/Muslims being utterly bias..."
DeleteI never did because it's all irrelevant. Please refer to my arguments about the responsibility of the Israeli governments for the conflict. Wrong doing of other parties in this world doesn't degrade that. This was the meaning of my "So?" comments.
"Putting "Israeli military" and "terrorism" in the same sentence is an oxymoron by the very definition of terrorism: Terrorism is..."
Whose definition is this? In my view, the aim of each definition is to include "them" and exclude "us". My definition of Terrorism is simpler: "Terrorism is the use of violence in which civilians get killed or injured, in order to achieve political goals." Under this, almost everybody uses some extent of Terrorism, and the IDF being on top. The Hamas is an organization which acts to help the Palestinian society by its own agenda and belief, through: relief aid, education, jobs, military activity, and Terror. The IDF, as an arm of the Israeli government, is not much different. The IDF has killed more civilians that all other terrorist organizations on the Arab side, combined.
"The Israeli military does its job when defending Eretz Yisrael..."
The IDF today doesn't defend the State of Israel any more (and Eretz Yisrael is a different entity altogether - that's actually the land, which doesn't need protection other than from the bodies which pollute it - that is, mostly, the Israeli government). The last time that the State of Israel was under threat of existence (and I doubt that too, because the Arab armies didn't really have any plan to conquer the state, but let's assume they had), was in 1973. We are going to celebrate the 40th anniversary of that redundant war this week. Since then, the existence of the state is at no question. Almost all its military and security resources today are dedicated to maintain the occupation situation unchanged, and this is the main mission of the Israeli military.
"Congratulations to and your kids for having served in the IDF: did you serve in utter loyalty to your country?"
Of course I was a very loyal service person, as long as I believed that what I did was really in the defense of my country. This started to diminish in 1982, when I was in Lebanon and I saw the lies of the Israeli government and the military in my own eyes. My trust of Israel's good intention was almost nilled in 1987, when I was chasing young Palestinian boys who were participating in what I saw as a just struggle for independence and freedom.
"When you say "by its fatal results you speak of casualties of conflicts caused by the fact that Hybrid Palestinian Terrorist Organisations use their civilians as human shields, thus, violating the rule 5 of the international humanitarian law (IHL)?"
The Jewish settlers do quite the same thing. They establish towns in the occupied territories, in violation of the 4th Geneva Convention, and sometimes even against the Israeli law, and Israeli government resolutions! The only act of an occupying force which is legal is if it serves a military need. But the Settlers, with the aid of the IDF, sometimes post factum, bring their children to live there, thus using them as shields.
"Question: when Hamas and PLO... should the IDF stand still and not strike back?"
The Palestinian struggle for freedom is the just struggle today, and the Zionist one is not. Therefore, any act of violence from the Zionist side is not just. Those in the IDF who wish to remain human and just, must refuse to take part in thoese activities, and demand from their government to give back the territories for the Palestinians to establish their free state. As long as this has not been done, there is no justification to "strike back" to any of the legitimate attacks by the Palestinians.
"History says that Jews were in Greater Israel before Islam even came to existence: yes or no?"
DeleteYes. But today, there are 3 million Palestinians with no freedom and with less human rights than the Jews. It doesn't matter when they came here. They are here, living in the Land of Israel. What should we do with them? They are not willing to be 2nd class residents, they are willing to fight, and in my view - their fight is just. They are entitled to live freely, under their own regime, just like anybody else.
"Living in Medinat Yisrael doesn't necessarily mean you know concepts such as the one mentioned. You benefit from all the positive things the State of Israel has to offer and yet fight (or seem to be fighting) to hand it over to the enemy - in the name of what?"
Absolutely - I benefit from the many wonderful things in this country, and I invite anybody to do the same - although I'm not encouraging to do so, just because of our government which puts us here at risk, and puts in question the hope for a good future.
I am expressing my opinion in the name of freedom of thought and speech. I support handing over part of the land to the Palestinians in the name of partial just, and in order to fix a historical injustice. The Palestinians are not my enemy any more.
"Have a great week ahead."
Have a great new year, and Gemar Chatima Tova. I respect your opinion which is different than mine.
Shanah Tovah, Mr Avner!
DeleteThe responsibility of the Israeli government in the conflict: the State of Israel has been being attacked since its inception because Arab States couldn't accept a Jewish State neighbouring them (and they still don't); therefore, it is Israel's government duty and responsibility to protect its territory, and above all its citizens, at all costs.
When protecting a nation, its military may make some mistakes along the way - no one denies it - but the IDF and the State of Israel abide by international agreements; can the other side say the same? No. So why focus on one side only?
Now, if you are talking about the misleading argument of "occupied territory" (when in fact, according to the International Law, the proper term is "disputed territory") Israel has the responsibility to protect Samaria & Judea until its final status is resolved. If you are about to refer to the settlement movement, yes...I do recognise their right to settle in what is the historical Israel, until the issue is resolved. Have you even read the Geneva Convention, I wonder?
"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies. (...) it is intended to prevent a practice adopted during the Second World War by certain Powers, which transferred portions of their own population to occupied territory for political and racial reasons or in order, as they claimed, to colonize those territories. Such transfers worsened the economic situation of the native population and endangered their separate existence as a race."
1- it is not occupied territory because Jordan, when it annexed Samaria & Judea, never claimed it. So, in fact, the original legal status of the territory was restored "namely, a territory designated as a national home for the Jewish people, who had a 'right of possession' to it during Jordanian rule while they were absent from the territory for several years due to a war imposed on them, and have now returned to it."
2- it does not apply to the settlers in Israel: there are no deportations.
3- the native population of Samaria & Judea are Jews.
Your proclivity to consider everything you can't explain (or that falls outside the scope of your agenda) irrelevant reveals a fear of actually considering to take a look at the other side of the question, without emotions, without anger. You seem to be blind by false convictions, Mr Avner - and the fact that you do not know how to discern the difference between Hamas and the IDF supports your blindness.
I am so sorry that you were so disappointed about your own existence, and didn't understand your work at the IDF, that you decided that your country had to be delivered to Arabs who have no right to claim Israel as theirs. I suppose you get a sense of deep joy when you see young Arab boys throwing rocks at Israeli vehicles and murdering people in the name of "independence and freedom". Why don't you spend as much as energy teaching Palestinians boys that violence is not the way? You do not want peace, you want this situation to be dragged on so you can feel better about yourself, Mr Avner - somehow you retrieve some sort of satisfaction from this conflict, don't you?
So what you are saying is: if someone attacks your home, because he feels it should belong to him (when the law actually says it is yours) you will stand by iddly and let your family be killed...you will not call the police (who in fact should refuse to intervene), and they can kill you at ease and with impunity.
Delete3 million Arabs who belong to Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt (and maybe even to Saudi Arabia, I still haven't got there yet) and claim a land that is not historically theirs, yes or no?
Saying that it doesn't matter when Arabs came to Israel and that the Jews have no claim to their own land is the same as saying that Jews who left Europe to Israel do not have the right to claim back the art and other assets stolen by the Nazis. It is exactly the same argument.
You have the right to freedom of speech, just like I do. We are conversing, I believe; however, you are using your freedom of speech to mislead people about the State of Israel and its history (which is not perfect, I give you that much).
If you are going to stand up for the Arab-Palestine then do it in full honesty by using facts, history, and mostly by confronting the responsibility of those Arab-Palestinian leaders. By not doing so, you are marring the debate and rendering it void of substance.
Thank you for this wonderful conversation *bowing*.
Dear Mr. Coutinho,
DeleteAs before, I would like to address your claims one at a time, which necessitates a separate post. Please refer to my new post, following this comment:
http://avners.blogspot.co.il/2013/11/an-answer-to-mr-max-coutinho-on-israeli.html
Will do, Mr Avner. Thank you.
Delete