On May 16, 2021, STEPHEN GOLUB <golub413@yahoo.com>:
Subject: House to House !
If you recall after 1967 Israel Occupied Gaza. There were several incidents of Booby traps, and sniper attacks causing the loss or injury of Israeli Soldiers!
To invade would be costly. Invading an Urban area gives the advantage to the Defenders. Their would be booby traps galore, sniper attacks, suicide attacks, etc.
Easy to establish yourself in a basement or roof and take a tremendous toll of any invader. The Russians had hundreds of Thousands of casualties in WW2 taking Berlin. Stalingrad cost the Germans about 3/4 of a Million casualties and cost them the loss of the whole German 6th Army (Hitler's largest)! Thank you Russian 62 Army and Generals Chuikov and Rodimstev!
Bombing the crap out of them would be preferable!! Dropping Napalm would be good also. After all the scum sent fire bombs into Israel!!
<charming@eclipse.net>:
Stephen Golub is right. Ground attack causes too many Jewish lives. Bombs on Hamas till the bastards kill every one of their leaders and hang them up like what the Italians finally did to Mussolini and his girl friend Claretta Petacci.
May 17, Ryan Silver <rls198011@gmail.com>:
No need for ground attack, just BULLDOZE Gaza and the Westbank AFTER we bomb them back to the stone ages.
Ryan L. Silver
May 19, I wrote:
Golub, Silver, Charming, Lance, Stein: How easy it is to be ARMCHAIR HEROES...
I'd like to see you guys, after you will have "bulldozed Gaza"(*). You would become the JUDO-NAZIS(**) that you potentially are right now.
Netanyahu is a COWARD, and so are you guys.
(**) this is the brilliant observation by Prof. Yeshaiahu Leibowitz.
Cheers,
Avner E.
Norman cohen <ishahrofah@gmail.com>:
World War 2 ended for one simple reason.
The USA and England put an end to the evil.
The Hamas-PLO/Israel war goes on and on and on and on... because Israel will not end the evil.
People who do what is needed to end evil are not "nazis".
Those who would call them "nazis" insult the victims of nazism.
Norman
Jack Zucker <jack@fullcirclecolor.com>:
I do believe that Norman has hit on an idea that I am in total agreement with. Yasher Koach, Norman.
I wrote:
So you think that there is something un-Nazi that Israel can do to end the conflict?... Well, let's hear it, because in the whole great "Start-up Nation" there is not one smart ass like yourselves who does know.
They keep doing the same old, with the same non-results. Maybe you guys can teach them strategy.
Cheers,
Avner E.
May 20, Norman cohen <ishahrofah@gmail.com>:
Barry Wolfensohn does not like the word "Nazi".
But your side, Mr. Efendowicz, is the side that loves the word because your side uses it far in excess.
What Winston Churchill did to Dresden was a necessary retaliation against Germany and contribution to put a stop to the evil in 1945.
In the USA, following Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945, the Air Force developed the Strategic Air Command, SAC, recognizing the legitimate need for that kind of warfare.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki are estimated to have saved 10 million casualties and 2 additional years of war against Japan.
Had WW2 lasted into late 1947, there never would have been a State of Israel in 1948.
Hashgocha Protis --- G-d had no trouble with the strategic bombing.
Norman
I wrote:
That is not true.
The Germans were defeated only when the Red Army got to Berlin, backed by the other ally's armies. No massive killing of civilians was necessary.
The Japanese were ready to surrender anyway, there was no need to use the Bombs (and certainly not the 2nd bomb on Nagasaki; it was just a field trial for another type of bomb, made from plutonium). Most US generals thought so.
Worst case scenario, they could have detonated them over an empty area, just to demonstrate. This is what makes the use of the Bombs the greatest war crime of all times.
The use of the Bombs was mostly a message to the USSR - don't mess with us after the war.
Cheers,
Avner E.
<charming@eclipse.net>:
The Germans were defeated only when the Red Army got to Berlin, backed by the other ally's armies. WHO WAS THAT?
I studied a lot of history. I never heard that until about 15 years ago when I visited Russia to do business and was told that by our Russian business associates while they were hosting us at dinner.
I wrote:
Yes, it was the USA, the UK and others (mainly the USA!). What's the difference? my point was, that the German army was defeated, no civilians needed to die.
But you didn't get my point, as usual.
<charming@eclipse.net>:
AVNER, I get your point all the time. by not agreeing with you doesn’t mean I don’t get your point. I see you believe you think you know better than anybody else how to run the world. You’re not so unique. In my many years on this man’s earth, I met a lot of guys who thought like you did. They reminded me of the Bully who got knocked out by a Midget.
I wrote:
By not agreeing with you, doesn't mean that I think that I know everything.
The above is just my opinion, that's all. I may be wrong (and time will tell). This is a statement that I have NEVER heard from a right-wing speaker.
This is one reason that we, the Leftists, are more successful, intellectually, than you guys. We have doubts.
Cheers,
Avner E.
May 20, roger's BB mail <roger@bayitbrick.com>:
Spot on. The “Right” seems incapable of dealing with cognitive dissonance; “you’re bad, we shoot you."
Many on the far Left are just as bad. Regard the nuance in the thinking of Yesh Atid and compare it to Likud’s. Even J-Street is capable of seeing both sides. But the trumpies, a lost cause when critical thinking is required.
May 20, STEPHEN GOLUB <golub413@yahoo.com>:
A Naval and other blockades should be imposed around Philistine "Gaza"! NO reporters are to be allowed in under ANY circumstances !!The Cell phone towers, and communications should be taken out asap!! All their tunnels should now be blown sky high and booby traps or remote bombs. planted in other likely spots!!!
Give the turds the same consideration they would happily give us!
If all else fails???? Then we have to have a final solution. We get a bunch of Liberal American Jews, get them full thick knee pads, and send them on their knees, to Hamas hqtrs. with plenty of money (tribute) and allow them to negotiate a liberal Left suicidal agreement!!
I wrote:
I will send your proposal to Israel's war cabinet (through my friend Amir Eshel, now the Ministry of Security GM). They will thank you for your day-saving idea.
Cheers,
Avner E.
<charming@eclipse.net>:
AVNER, WHEN YOUR FRIEND AMIR ASKS YOU IF THIS IS YOUR IDEA, DON’T LIE TO HIM, TELL HIM THE TRUTH
I wrote:
Of course, I will never take undue credit.
Especially for such a STUPID idea.
Plus, I never lie.
Once again, you did not get my irony. Did you go to the same school as "Prof." Norman?...
Cheers,
Avner E.
May 21, dl sugerman <sugerad29@hotmail.com>:
The person who throws Israeli military connection names around is the same person who supports Biden and looks at Donald Trump as the enemy. holy hypocrisy batman 🤣
I wrote:
Well, I definitely support Biden (which decent human being wouldn't?...), and - I definitely think that Trump is an Enemy.
Tyrants, stupid people with power, have always been enemies to humanity; And more times than not, Humanity rose to the challenge, joined forces, and fought back, and won. This is what happened last November, and hopefully will happen soon, when we through away Netanyahu, his insane psychologist, his spoiled low-life son, along with their best allies - the Hamas.
Cheers,
Avner E.
Benjamin Zinkin <benzinkin@aol.com>:
Well said. Bravo
roger's BB mail <roger@bayitbrick.com>:
YUP.
May 21, Norman cohen <ishahrofah@gmail.com>:
Effendovicz is disgustingly full of crap, exceedingly blinded by his foolish idol worship.
Norman
I wrote:
That may be the case. I never pretended to be completely clean of traces of crap.
Yet, when you guys suggest to "bulldoze Gaza" or physically take control over the Gaza strip - it's my son Ben and his friends, who will need to do it, not yours.
Ben has been in reserve duty service for the past 2 weeks, commanding an air force rescue unit team. His younger brother Omer, an elite paratrooper, already said the he and his entire team would refuse to go and fight in Netanyahu's private war, in order to save his fat ass from prison.
Needless to say, I can't be more proud of both my sons.
Cheers,
Avner E
Richard Lewis <docr1119@gmail.com>:
Avner,
Admirable and noble that Ben and Omer defend Israel.
Puzzling that they would disobey orders to fight Hamas terrorists who are hurling thousands of rockets killing and injuring civilians in Israel.
Like father like son I suppose.
Doesn’t reflect well.
Rich Lewis
roger's BB mail <roger@bayitbrick.com>:
Lewis, unfortunately your bullshit made it through my bullshit filter.
How dare you imply that Avner and his sons lack the will to defend the State of Israel. When have you put your sorry ass on the line for anything but your own benefit?
You are a vile creature. You are a poor example of a human being.
Frankly, I find you to be a despicable human being and my life and that of the rest of the world will be fuller when you are in the hole in the ground, cowering from the opprobrium of honest citizens that you so richly deserve.
I pray that our paths never cross. I tremble at the thought of sharing the same space with such as you.
<charming@eclipse.net>:
Avner,
Were you opposed to this military operation “guardian of the Walls?”
Cheers to you and Shabbat Shalom as well.
I wrote:
Well of Course I was!!
The right name for this massive War Crime, that you call "Guardian of the Walls", is - Guardian of Netanyahu's family; Because nobody besides the Netanyahu family and the Hamas have gained anything from it (Netanyahu gained Big Time - the "Change Government" that was about to form, headed by Mr. Bennet, was just 1 day away - but it collapsed as a result. That's a fact that every Israeli knows, no matter on which side they are).
Operation Guardian of the Walls can also be seen as achieving its main goal - for the Hamas: Now They are the true Guardians of the Walls, and Defenders of Al-Aksa; This is one Huge achievement that Netanyahu is now ripping his ass out, trying to conceal; But it's so obvious that Israel will back up from Sheikh-Jarakh and Al-Aksa, that Hamas' victory will be inevitable.
Cheers,
Avner E.
roger's BB mail <roger@bayitbrick.com>:
Avner, how dare you express a thoughtful informed opinion. What do you know living so far away from Gaza. Those of us here in the East Coast of the USA have a much more informed opinion. Our children’s play dates were held indoors due to the pollen count …and the pizza delivery was late! Again. Nebuch.
I agree with you, not that it’s my role, but as a lover of our crazy homeland…..
I do though think that once the rockets started flying from the mamzers, Melech Bibi had no choice. It was such a perfect storm for him, and alas his jail cell will have to wait.. again.
Of course. IMHO, he was his usual bull in a china shop. His hubris made israel look like the aggressor. Where was our Abba Eben at the UN pleading for the world to stop Hamas? One forceful speech, stating clearly that this was no way to protest the events in J’Lem; that it was clearly and act of war that left Israel no options. Instead we got his usual Trumpian shit.
I had a bit if a tiff with Rav Riskin, whom I admire, over just this issue. He was haranguing us to “Do a better job of supporting Israel”! I reminded him that maybe the source was failing to make a good argument. (This was years ago.)
All bibi did was mow the lawn.
May HKBH keep your sons safe.
Shabbat Shalom
May 21, Ryan Silver <rls198011@gmail.com>:
Liberal Jews in the Israeli military. COUNTERPRODUCTIVE!
If they had a brain (sons of Avner so I’m not surprised) they’d be for destroying all jihadists in Gaza and West Bank. If I wasn’t 40, I’d sign up without question and want to go in. If I die I die. That’s a warrior.
I’m curious would they voluntarily sign up if it wasn’t for mandatory enrollment/enlistment?
America should have that...... maybe we wouldn’t have so many sissies.
I wrote:
We lived in California for 8 years, until my sons graduated from high school, and decided to immigrate back to Israel to enlist in the military. By Israeli law, since they left before the age 15, they did not have to do that.
This is a fact. But stupid folks like this Ryan won't recognize a fact if it was stuck up their twisted eyes.
Cheers,
Avner E.
May 22, dl sugerman <sugerad29@hotmail.com>:
You know everything. so what’s the solution to Hamas, hezbollah, Iran, muslim brotherhood ?
I wrote:
Right now, after the mess that ALL Israeli governments have brought us into - there is no quick solution.
Looking for a magical, quick solution is childish.
But if you could watch Israeli TV, you could see even some southern-communities residents (the ones which have been suffering the most in the past 20 years), ask for a long term solution, which is - a political agreement, by treating the Palestinians as human beings, with equal right to be citizens of some nation (be it Israel, Egypt, Jordan, or Palestine - it's up to them).
Cheers,
Avner E.
May 23, Myron Sugerman <charming@eclipse.net>:
Avner,
We have no reason to disbelieve you but what is so strange is the hatred you have for Israel which you share with us?
I wrote:
I don't love or hate abstract entities such as States or Countries.
I love the Land of Israel, which is a physical thing with sceneries, flora, fauna, history, people, food, music, etc. (I have been hiking 65% so far of the Israeli Trail, and I know this land much better than most "patriotic" right-wingers, Arab-haters, Netanyahu-voters that share the same land with me (I wish them well, some of them are in my wife's family, and I do love THEM!)
I love the land of Israel without ever using Waze or GPS, because I know it well.
I don't "love" the state of Israel, but it's my home (for the moment), and for the meantime I honestly wish the best for it, that it succeeds and flourish because this is where I pay taxes and get services.
I know that it's hard for right-wingers to make the distinction between State-and-people and their Government, but please make an effort.
Cheers,
Avner E.
Myron Sugerman <charming@eclipse.net>:
Your tone is so Hateful it comes as a shock to Jew Loving Jews
I wrote:
I don't love Jews!!! Some Jews I love, some dislike, some I really hate. I'm indifferent to most, because I don't know them. Just like Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists etc.
I don't love or hate people by their religious affiliation or their ethnicity. That's racism. You guys make any decent person sick.
Cheers,
Avner E.
May 24, Jack Zucker <jack@fullcirclecolor.com>:
Avner
Don't let Myron's myopic world view force your eye off the ball. Your retort is spot on, but will fall on deaf ears where Myron is concerned. However, when the game is on the line (to keep with the sports metaphor) Myron and I see eye to eye on the need to protect Klal Yisroel from all external threats. At lunch at his favorite Italian restaurant he is a lovable compatriot.
I wrote:
I had no doubt for one moment that Mr. Sugerman was an empathetic, dear fellow. I respect his personality as well as his views. My in-laws are the same, the greatest of people, warm and full of love, but as deaf as stones to any opinion that they did not grow up with. I love them like my own parents.
p.s. How about this INTERNAL threat, in the form of Mr. Netanyahu?... Upon your request, I will send you a long list of security personnel and experts (from both Left and Right! I will specify their affiliation for you), who think that him being in office is the greatest threat on Israel's security.
Next thing: please ask me what I think the biggest threat upon Israel is, coming from Iran (not my idea, but a brilliant one).
Cheers,
Avner E.
Jack Zucker <jack@fullcirclecolor.com>:
You understand Myron perfectly.
I agree that Mr. Netanyahu is as great a threat to long-term Israeli survival as Trump and Trumpism is to the U.S. However I don't agree with all of your posits. Your so-called Israeli apartheid is a Trojan Horse, that, if allowed to succeed, would spell the end of Israel as a Jewish state. The Israeli Arabs, who may or may not have legitimate complaints to their treatment don't present an existential threat. The West Bank and Gazan Arabs shouldn't be an Israel problem in the first place. They have been abandoned by their Arab brothers and are infected with corrupt, inept leadership who have dropped every opportunity to have a state of their own.
What is the biggest threat to Israel from Iran?
I wrote:
If you are worried about Israel becoming non-Jewish, then you are for a 2-state solution (that it assuming that you don't want me to really line in apartheid, nor you are for annihilating the Palestinians, or deport all 3 million of them). OK then, welcome to the traitors camp.
What is the biggest threat to Israel from Iran?
This is the fact that high school students in Iran are doing better than Israeli students in international math tests.
I'm also a high school math teacher by training, I'm familiar with the level of math in Israeli schools.
Cheers,
Avner E.
Jack Zucker <jack@fullcirclecolor.com>:
Avner - I have no desire to engage in debate with you. I agree with a lot of what you say. There is no "if" in my belief that a two state solution is the only solution to the West Bank and Gaza Arab problem. I believe that Israeli Arabs should be treated equally with all other citizens of Israel, and the 3 million Arabs of the West Bank and Gaza should have a state and can call it whatever they want. I do object to the referring to them as Palestinians. There is no ethnic or historical thing as a Palestinian. The name is a political invention of modern times and its continued use, particularly by people like you, is a deterrent to an ultimate solution to the guarantee of a permanent existence of the State of Israel.
I wrote:
Every people and ethnicity has been started sometime.
In one breath you declare: "(they) can call it whatever they want", and in the next you care if those people are named Palestinians or not?...
I don't care how they are called, or even whether they are a people or not.
The only question that matters is - what do we do with them? Do we keep oppressing them, denying them the right to determine the way they live? or kill them all (slowly or quickly), or expel them, or what?
On this only important question, we seem to agree.
It's OK to disagree as well.
Cheers,
Avner E.
Jack Zucker <jack@fullcirclecolor.com>:
Avner -- With all due respect, please stop being obtuse. I have said many times in this thread that the two state solution is the only solution that insures Israel's survival as a Jewish state. The Arabs who stayed and became Israeli citizens should be lauded for their continued loyalty to the State of Israel as indicated by two thoughtful letters posted earlier in this thread. Israel should, lacking an agreement with the Palestinian Authority, pull out of the West Bank (the way they did in Gaza) and unilaterally declare borders and let them sort out the politics of declaring their state. This might require the pulling out of some of the more indefensible settlements on the West Bank. I am no genius and certainly no expert on international diplomacy, but the simplicity of this solution seems obvious to me. If it takes an internal civil war among faction of the West Bank and Gazan Arabs, so be it. Your "only question" is disengenuous. Why do "we" have to do anything wiyj "them". Let "them" do for themselves.
I wrote:
Agreed.
I asked this disingenuous question, because by not doing what you suggest, Israel IS doing something - sustaining the occupation, which you are against.
No Right-wing speaker has ever given a real answer to this question (other than - let's continue what is being done, which makes Israel an apartheid state).
Cheers,
Avner E.
Roger's בית בריק <roger@bayitbrick.com>:
Myron, since when is disagreement with a policy hatred of a nation?
In 1939 that kind of talk was used if you disagreed with National Socialism.
I abhor likud’s policy for the territories, does that mean I don’t love israel???
In my book it means I love her more because I’m more worried about her future than Bibi is, he’s only worried about keeping his ass out of jail. I do admit he’s also a Zionist.
I wrote:
In Proverbs 3, 12 it is said: "because the Lord disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in." (כי את אשר יאהב ה' יוכיח - משלי ג יב).
Similarly, Proverbs 13, 24 reads: "Whoever spares the rod - hates their children, but the one who loves their children, is careful to discipline them."
"חוֹשֵׂךְ שִׁבְטוֹ, שׂוֹנֵא בְנוֹ; וְאֹהֲבוֹ, שִׁחֲרוֹ מוּסָר" (משלי יג כד)
You guys constantly mix "hatred of Israel" and "criticizing the Israeli government". By virtue of Kohelet, you did well to quote Kohelet
Yes, I do hate the Israeli government, and most of all the low-life corrupt SOB who runs it with the aid of his wicked crazy wife Sarah, and his spoiled, filthy mouth, unemployed son Yair.
Myron Sugerman <charming@eclipse.net>:
Now this is a good read.
So can we say you love Israel? this is important since a lot of us think that you hate the Jewish homeland from the way you express yourself. Try and eliminate the personal insults and stick to the facts. I also find Mrs. Sarah to be a major negative. I’m sure Bibi regrets the day he stuck the fountain pen into the wrong Ink Well.
May 23, STEPHEN GOLUB <golub413@yahoo.com>:
Why converse with a sick, name calling, void of facts, man like this Avner??? He seem normal to you in anyway?? Save the effort. He is obviously on the other side!!
This guy exudes hate galore. No facts just names. Maybe had a miserable life or whatever and thinks he deserves better?? He seem mentally stable to you?
I wrote:
In the meantime, I'm getting more positive feedback (along with negative), but more attention than your sorry posts do. You know why? - because I force you guys to Think.
The number of Jews in Arab countries as a sign of Israel not being an apartheid state?.... Give me a break. (leave aside the fact that it's all lies... No Jews in Egypt today?!? Seriously?! But that's not the point).
OK, there are very FEW Jews in Egypt, Syria, etc. What's the difference for the fact that Israel discriminates against non-Jews?
No, Arabs who are Israeli citizens don't enjoy the same rights as Jews.
Let alone the Palestinians under Israeli control, with no civil rights at all. (Even the Arabs who live in East Jerusalem, who got a special right to vote for the City, as an artificial way to "unite the city of Jerusalem" - are not Israeli citizens; Think about it - residents of the Israeli Capital (because you want to annex their places to Jerusalem, as part of the "unification") - are not Israeli citizens!! If this is not apartheid, than there has never been apartheid anywhere.
Cheers,
Avner E.
Mark Harrison <cityfox@verizon.net>:
And you Mr. Katz have very little common sense, many time I have requested that you produce facts not B.S. You are a typical left wing accuser story teller with nothing but crickets or distraction.
I have heart for the Constitutional Republic of The United states of America I am devoted to The State of Israel. When anyone degrades either of these countries I will stand firm and do everything in my power to protect them.That's where my heart is.
Anyone that can stand with the antisemitism in the Democrat Socialist party against America and Israel I haven't got heart for.
Wake up if you love your country if you support Israel get off the plantation.
Mark Harrison
May 22, Robert Katz <rkatz@mygrandma.com>:
You are proving that you are incapable of understanding the difference between anti-semitism, and challenging militaristic acts by Israel and their approach towards gaining peace.
You're a dinosaur. You prove it over and over again. Let us folks clean up the mess that you've continued to support without getting results.
Continuing in the same manner isn't going to get better results..
A third grade I could tell you that.
I'm calling me they left wing socialist, has my friends and colleagues laughing at you.
I was a republican until Donald Trump ruined the party, and much like George Will Bill kristol and numerous other proud conservative republicans, you are just standing in the way without a just standing with a real conservative is.
You're falling for Donald Trump's cult like approach, and you can now join the white supremacist and bigots as his leading supporters. Shame on you. Apparently, your brain is very limited and it's elderly stage.
Just try to get out of the way so we don't stomp on you. We have work to do.
Real conservatives would never buy Donald Trump's crap. Apparently, you have proven to the world that you are not a real conservative.
Charles Jacobs <charlesjacobs123@gmail.com>:
Here’s an easy concept that might get us closer to mutual understanding:
Antisemitism is defined by treating Jews differently than you treat others.
The problem is that Jews too, treat themselves differently and think they should.
After all, We are not like Them and don’t want to be.
SO: when Jews qvetch about Jewish conduct in Israel, we KNOW that compared to China or Sudan or Iran, we are vastly more moral, not on the same scale.
THIS MEANS THAT BOTH JEWS — AND THEIR ENEMIES — DON’T USE THE SAME SCALE TO MEASURE JEWS AND NON-JEWS,
And that means that wanting to be a good Jew and prompting our people to be better is a weapon used by our enemies to prove that we are WORSE than anyone else and deserve all that DISPROPORTIONATE “coverage” and condemnation.
Except our Jews, wanting to be even better than we are, KNOW that they are really trying to move us from an already good grade to one even better, from 80 to 95 on the good conduct scale — and THEIR guys use our public criticism that to PROVE we are what they have always said we are.
The Problem is that our guys won’t say the actual truth, that they are Jewish supremacists who think Jewish conduct has to be better — or else we’re not worth defending.
They won’t say, “Of course we don’t do slavery of blacks like the Arabs do all over Africa, and we don’t do genocide like China, etc. Israel is saintly compared to them.”
By withholding this thought, which is what they actually believe, they help defame Jews and Israel.
Big problem.
I wrote:
This is an interesting point, that deserves careful attention.
The main argument of Mr. Jacobs collapses when facing the following facts:
1. Israel is a country that pretends to be and declares itself as a free and democratic country.
2. No other country in the world, other than Israel, is both democratic in the practical sense of the term (full freedom of speech, organizing, demonstration, voting etc.), and at the same time denying the same rights from a major section of the public under its control.
Israel can claim that it pulled out of the Gaza strip; but as long as Israel denies the people in Gaza the possibility to live their lives freely, by fully controlling their air space, waterways, trade etc., and by supporting the Hamas which keeps the Gazans in their poverty and lack of freedom - this claim (the Gaza disengagement) is just an empty phrase.
The Israeli law clearly and deliberately distinguishes between Jews and Arabs in the West Bank area, treating offenders of the law completely differently. Even within the borders where the Israeli law applies to everyone, theoretically - the difference in allocation of infrastructure, civic, education budgets etc. are significantly different; hundreds of new towns and communities for Jews have been established during the 73 years of the existence of the State - but not even one new city or town for the Arab sector; and the list goes on and on. (* This is so obvious, that even an official government committee, formed after the October 2000 riots and headed by justice Theodor Or, clearly stated what I said).
So, there is a very good reason that publics and governments worldwide treat the State of the Jews in a critical way (far from being critical enough! Had the advanced world joined forces and put real sanctions on the international aid to Israel, like they did to South Africa - the Occupation would be long a story of the past).
Bottom line - nobody treats Jews in any higher standards than anybody else - when considering the community of nations and publics that took upon themselves to promote freedom and justice. With the classification of a state as being free and democratic, come many benefits in the form of inter-state relations, commerce, defense treaties, mutual diplomatic support, science and technology cooperation, etc. With the benefits, come responsibility and commitment to be really democratic.
Jews cannot demand to be treated equally, while supporting the only one country that pretends to be democratic, while denying freedom and civil rights.
Cheers,
Avner E.
Charles Jacobs <charlesjacobs123@gmail.com>:
Specious, Avner… all of it.
Of course you forget all about the reasons Israel must protect itself from people whose religion and politics wants to destroy it. You act as though Islam does not define Jews as Dhimmi, as a people whose religion is a purposeful twisted fraud.
You act as though you know nothing of the history of the Jews under Islam.
You act though the Palestinians were just dark skinned Canadians.
Once under such delusions, you qvetch about how the nasty Jews, FOR NO REASON, don’t treat them like Canadians.
Piffle.
For more, see below in your text.
Charles Jacobs
On May 23, 2021, at 2:33 PM, Avner Efendowicz <avnerefe@yahoo.com> wrote:
1. Israel is a country that pretends to be and declares itself as a free and democratic country. FRANCE IS A FREE AND DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY, YET IT HAS BEEN INVADED BY JIHADISTS WHO DO NOT WISH TO BE FRENCHMEN. THEY TRIED FOR DECADES TO PRETEND THIS IN NOT THE CASE.
THEY ARE ONLY NOW AWAKENING. STAY TUNED.
2. No other country in the world, other than Israel, is both democratic in the practical sense of the term (full freedom of speech, organizing, demonstration, voting etc.), and at the same time denying the same rights from a major section of the public under its control. WHAT RIGHTS DOES IT DENY THEM?
THEY VOTE, ARE MEMBERS OF THE SUPREME COURT, HAVE REPS IN THE KNESSET.
The Israeli law clearly and deliberately distinguishes between Jews and Arabs in the West Bank area, OF COURSE IT DOES, HOW ELSE COULD THERE BE A JEWISH STATE?
treating offenders of the law completely differently. BETTER THAN ARABS ARE TREATED IN THE ARAB WORLD, HOWEVER….
Even within the borders where the Israeli law applies to everyone, theoretically - the difference in allocation of infrastructure, civic, education budgets etc. are significantly different; THIS IS TRUE. SAME AS IN AMERICA. SHOULD WE NO LONGER DEFEND AMERICA?
hundreds of new towns and communities for Jews have been established during the 73 years of the existence of the State - but not even one new city or town for the Arab sector; and the list goes on and on. THIS IS, YES A PROBLEM, BUT ABSOLUTELY UNDERSTANDABLE, UNLESS YOU HATE JEWS.
So, there is a very good reason that publics and governments worldwide treat the State of the Jews in a critical way (far from being critical enough! Had the advanced world joined forces and put real sanctions on the international aid to Israel, like they did to South Africa - the Occupation would be long a story of the past).
AVNER, YOU NOW ARE A SCHMUCK. ARABS HAVE BLACK SLAVES IN 4 AFRICAN COUNTRIES. WHY IS THE “HUMAN RIGHTS” COMMUNITY ALMOST SILENT? ARABS KILLED MORE ARABS BY A FACTOR OF 100 MORE THAN JEWS KILLED ARABS, BUT IT’S ONLY JEWISH CONFLICTS THAT NEEDS WORLD VETTING? WHERE IS THE BDS MOVEMENT TO SAVE THE VICTIMS OF CHINA’S GENOCIDE? WHERE IS THE MOVEMENT TO FREE BLACK SLAVES IN SUDAN, MAURITANIA, ALGERIA, NIGERIA AND LIBYA? WHY ONLY THE JEWS, AVNER…..?????? ISRAEL IS WORSE THAN CHINA? WTF?????!!!
Bottom line - nobody treats Jews in any higher standards than anybody else - when considering the community of nations and publics that took upon themselves to promote freedom and justice.
DID FRANCE BECOME A NATION STATE IN A VIRGIN BIRTH? YOU KNOW WHAT THE FRENCH DID IN NEW CALEDONIA? YOU HEAR ANY UN CONDEMNATION?
ALSO, YOU SPEAK AS THOUGH THE CRIME WERE HYPOCRISY… THAT IF ISRAEL DID NOT BOTHER TO CLAIM IT IS A DEMOCRATIC AND FREE STATE, THEN YOU WOULD HAVE NO CASE AGAINST IT. RIGHT?
THIS IS THE REASON YOU GIVE TO EXPLAIN WHY ALL THE NATIONS IN THE UN CONDEMN THE WORLD’S ONLY JEWISH STATE? AND YOU SIT SILENTLY AS THE ARAB STATES VOTE IN THE UN THAT ISRAEL IS BAD?
With the classification of a state as being free and democratic, come many benefits in the form of inter-state relations, commerce, defense treaties, mutual diplomatic support, science and technology cooperation, etc. With the benefits, come responsibility and commitment to be really democratic.
HERE IS THE SOLUTION TO GET AVNER OFF ISRAEL’S BACK. DECLARE THAT IT CANNOT BE AT THE MOMENT A PURELY DEMOCRATIC STATE AND BE TREATED LIKE THE US TREATS IRAN UNDER BIDEN OR SAUDI OR RUSSIA OR CHINA… NOT A BAD DEAL, I’D SAY.
Jews cannot demand to be treated equally, while supporting the only one country that pretends to be democratic, while denying freedom and civil rights.
I WAS RIGHT!!!!! “PRETENDS” TO BE DEMOCRATIC IS AVNER’S PROBLEM.
SOLVED!
CHARLES
I wrote:
Mr. Jacobs,
You have a lot of history to learn.
Jews have flourished under Muslim regimes, for the better part of 7 centuries (with a few intermissions - it's history, not exact science), in what is know as the Golden Era for the Jews under the Islam (most of the years 711 - 1492).
If it was not for the Muslim mathematicians, physicians and philosophers - all the treasures of ancient Greece would have been lost, thanks to the Catholic church which was not in favor of scientific advancement.
It was Christianity (the ancestors of your friends in the Bible Belt...) who caused the Jews the most of troubles, killing millions of them (and not "just" thousands like some Muslims, sometimes).
Regarding the civil rights - I will attribute your lack of knowledge to you being far away from here, and not to your wisdom which I don't question. I was referring to 3 million Palestinians, under the control of the State of Israel in Gaza (indirectly) and in the West Bank (by direct control of the military, and a separate legal system from the Jewish settlers). They are not Israeli citizens, and they don't vote to any political entity. They are people with no control of their lives - a unique case in democratic countries.
The Muslims in France are a headache, but - they are citizens with full rights. If they turn France into a Muslim country - too bad maybe, but this has nothing to do with the fact that all French have the right to decide on that, regardless of their religion. That's democracy, albeit not a perfect one.
Regarding condemning Arab states, or China - you didn't get my point.
THOSE ARE NOT DEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES! Nobody expects them to act democratically, and there is no public opinion in those countries to be influenced by international pressure (at least, not in the same way as there is on democratic countries). That's the difference, get it?!...
You are justifying one evil by another, while we who live in democracies, are trying to fix the evil. That has not been the Jewish way for most of history - Jews have always been at the frontline of fighting against evil, even in non-democratic countries (and now you conservative Jews are withdrawing from that). These struggles are the environment in which democracies were born - as you said correctly, sometimes by blood baths, unfortunately.
Cheers,
Avner E.
