Sep 17, 2021, Myron Sugerman <charming@eclipse.net>:
Friends, on the occasion of the New Year 5782, I decided to write to our friend Marie, who is a great lady, a devoted and Proud Jew, certain facts that are totally incontrovertible, which I am happy to share with others, since there are there are those who could nicely benefit from what I wrote.
-----Original Message-----
From: charming@eclipse.net <charming@eclipse.net>
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2021 6:25 AM
Subject: RE: Shana tova.
Marie,
Thank you so much for your Shana Chadasha greetings.
Trump was the greatest friend of the Jewish People. The majority of the Jews in America are a pitiful lot for failing to recognize Trump's greatness. Within a generation, their children will no longer be Jews or identify in any form as Jews. This is not something to celebrate since the heritage of being a Jew is an honor that has survived thousands of years of challenge under the most intolerable of conditions. To see Jews quitting in our generation by the millions is a heart breaker, especially when we think of the history of our people who endured the worst of human suffering to be able to pass on to their descendants the Torah of Life given by GD to Moses on Mt. Sinai 3334 years ago.
The majority of the Ashkenazim Jews, with the exception of the Orthodox, lost their will be to strong, disciplined and fearless, like the generation of our Fathers born in the early part of the 20th century.
Within a period of 100 years, especially in the more recent fifty years or so, Jews allowed themselves to be corrupted by the idolatry of wealth and money. The money has weakened their moral resolve.
These weak hearted Jews hate Trump in spite of his greatness for Israel because his persona as a non politically correct Mob Boss type embarrasses them.
One of my dearest friends is a retired high ranking Officer in the Israeli Navy, who was a Navy Seal, who as he describes tongue and cheek style, entered in a few Arab countries "without a passport" for the purpose of dispatching a Terrorist or two to Paradise to earn his 70 Virgins.
My friend is half Iraqi half Ashkenaz, meaning half Mizrach (not Sephardi but Mizrachi, you know the difference).
In a good discussion over coffee the other day with another Israeli, he summarized his priorities. First he said is being a Jew, second is being a Zionist and third is being an Israeli.
I found his self description very fascinating because my own self description is also Jew first, Zionist second, American third. This doesn’t mean in any sense any less patriotic as an American, the proof being that our son Danny, with our blessings, volunteered to join the United States Army and served with honor and pride.
As long as a Jew puts Jew first, then he or she will vote for the Boss of the Mafia because the Boss of the Mafia made Israel more than just a Middle East Power House, the Godfather made Israel a World Power House.
When the Jew says "I don't live in Israel, I live in America, so therefore I'm more interested in what goes on in America than in Israel," that person fails to understand that Jews are only respected and feared IN AMERICA because the Nation of Israel is a world power house. Anyone who thinks otherwise is self deceiving. Love follows Respect. Respect does not follow Love. Let them fear and respect. 99% of Hugs and Kisses last until the money runs out.
For two thousand years, we were bought and sold like Slaves in the World's Slave Market Place, because we had no Nation, no State and no Military. Less than a Hundred years ago, the Nations of the world didn’t even see the need to keep us alive as slaves, so they devoted their time energy and resources to annihilating us in the Death Camps of Europe, which we know as the Shoa, the Holocaust.
Today the Jew, wherever he lives in the Great Diaspora, has a sense of true self confidence, however only when he realizes that the basis of his self confidence comes from the fact that today we have our own Nation, our own State, our own Government and most importantly our own Military, that never again, unless G-D forbid Israel loses its sense of destiny, will the hateful enemy be able to put us into Cattle Cars to ship us off to the Death Camps.
No Jew, who claims to be Orthodox, can be anything other than a Conservative politically minded person. An Orthodox Jew today would be in contradiction of Orthodoxy if he or she votes Liberal since the ideology of Liberal completely contradicts the teachings of Torah and the Jew who identifies himself or herself as Orthodox is in no position to argue with the words of Torah since an Orthodox Jew is only an Orthodox Jew or let's just say the word Jew, without the need for the word Orthodox, because the Jew believes that Torah was given directly by G-D to Moshe Rabbeinu on Mt. Sinai and therefore every word contained is Holy including the words that condemn homosexuality and men dressing like women and women dressing like men.
In fact the Yom Kippur Machzor states very clearly that the many transgressions are cause for punishment by stoning, burning, strangulation and decapitation (obviously more symbolic than actual but Cosa Nostra obviously takes the words of the Yom Kippur Machzor more seriously than a Din Torah).
Whether one practices and observes the laws of Torah, both Written and Oral, as long as that person does not deny the origin of Torah, then at least there is hope for the posterity of the progeny because the Jew is hanging on to the life raft and that means there's life and where there's life there's hope.
The great error and the great tragedy of the Non Orthodox World is that human minds decided to pick and choose what to believe and what not to believe, changing the meaning of the word Judaism from a religion to a business opportunity, quite comparable to the sale of Snake Oil.
The first compromise was not the last compromise. As the memberships are failing to replace themselves in the Non Orthodox Temples, it's only a matter of time before those magnificent edifices will be bought up or even co-opted by the growing number of Moslems in the United States.
As for the Orthodox world, it grows in numbers as people who wish to remain Jewish, seek authenticity. What Orthodox however needs to incorporate into its educational system for young people is not just Judaism but needs to teach Zionism. Judaism teaches truth. Zionism teaches strength.
Right without Might is useless.
G'Mar Tov, v' Shabbat Shalom, G-D bless you for your uncompromising love for our Jewish Nation and our Jewish People.
Myron
Jack Zucker <jack@fullcirclecolor.com> (with commnets by Myron, embedded):
Myron,
I read your "letter to Marie" twice in search of your "incontrovertible facts" and found only one and that didn't come until your penultimate line. There is no question that "right without might is useless." The area of contention is your high and mighty assertion that only orthodoxy can provide that might.
READ AGAIN, JAKEY………. ORTHODOXY ALONE IS UNABLE TO PROVIDE THAT MIGHT. THE STUDY OF JUDAISM IS BASED ON THE IMMUTABLE AND IRREVOCABLE TRUTH (RAMBAM IN HIS 13 PRINCIPLES OF JUDAISM), THAT TORAH WAS GIVEN BY GD TO MOSES ON MT. SINAI. TORAH IS THE BASIS FOR ENTIRE WESTERN CIVILIZATION BECAUSE JUDEO CHRISTIAN IDEOLOGY IS PREDICATED UPON A BELIEF THAT MORALITY AND ETHICS ARE A GD GIVEN GIFT TO MANKIND, HOWEVER THE LEARNING OF TORAH NEEDS A POLITICAL FORCE TO GIVE RIGHT ITS MIGHT AND THAT IS WHY OUR EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS BOTH IN THE HOMELAND AND IN THE GALUT (DIASPORA) MUST INCORPORATE THE LEARNING OF ZIONISM, WHICH IS A POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY, GROUNDED IN THE MEANING OF THE WORD STRENGTH, FOUND IN JABOTINSK’S DOCTRINE OF THE IRON WALL, WRITTEN 1923…
Your outright rejection (...)
JAKEY, WRONG AGAIN, I AM NOT REJECTING THEM, THE MILLIONS OF CONSERVATIVE, REFORM AND OTHERS ARE THE RESULTS OF REJECTERS ALL I AM DOING IS STATING AN INCONTROVERTIBLE FACT AND THAT IS THE CHILDREN OF THESE MILLIONS WILL NO LONGER BE JEWS BECAUSE THEY SEE NO SPIRITUALITY IN SOMETHING WHICH IS MORE A COMMERCIAL ENTERPRISE THAN A RELGION, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY TODAY THE MEANING OF NON ORTHODOXY.
THINK ABOUT IT, IS THERE ONE NON ORTHODOX RABBI OR LEADER, WHOSE GRAVE IS A HOLY SITE THAT PEOPLE GO TO IN ORDER TO PRAY TO GD BECAUSE THE GRAVE OF A HOLY MAN HAS A SPECIAL QUALITY OF SPIRITUALITY AND HOLINESS? WHEN JEWS WISH TO MAKE A HOLY PILGRAMAGE, WE GO TO THE GRAVES OF YOCHANAN BEN ZAKKAI IN MERON, TO RAMBAM IN TIBERIAS, TO SAFED WHERE ARE BURIED THE MANY OF OUR TZADDIKIM, TO CAMBRIA HEIGHTS IN QUEENS TO THE REBBE’S OHEL. DID YOU EVER HEAR OF A HOLY SITE OF A NON ORTHODOX RABBI?
ABSENT THE CONCEPT THAT THE ORIGIN OF THE JEWISH RELIGION IS GD GIVEN LAW TO MAN, THROUGH HIS PROPHET MOSES, THEN THERE IS NO JUDAISM. IT’S SOME OTHER ISM BUT CERTAINLY NOT JUDAISM. IN FACT, I SEE THE NEED TO USE THE WORDS ORTHODOXY OR ORTHODX JEWRY AS UNNECESSARY SINCE BEING JEWISH IS A RELIGION WHICH DOESN’T HAVE A DEGREE OF BELIEFS, IT HAS ENDLESS ARGUMENTS OVER THE MEANING OF TORAH BUT NEVER A QUESTION OF BELIEF IN A SUPREME BEING THAT GAVE TORAH TO MAN. IN FACT THE USAGE OF THE WORD ORTHODOXY IS RATHER UNECESSARY. AS FOR THE LACK OF SPIRITUALITY, SINCE NON ORTHDOOXY IS A MAN MADE RELIGION, NOT BASED ON THE GD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB, THEN THE CONCLUSION IS THAT IT’S NOT A RELIGION AND SINCE IT’S NOT A RELIGION, THERE IS NO TRUE SPIRTUALITY, AND IF IT’S NOT A RELIGION, THEN I’M NO LONGER BELIEVING A SUPREME BEING, WHO IS THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE AND OF MAN.
AT BEST, I’M BELIEVING IN SCIENCE. THERE’S NO SPIRITUALITY IN SCIENCE, BUT AT WORST, I’M BUYING MEMBERSHIP INTO AN EXTENSION OF THE LOCAL SUBURBAN JEWISH COUNTRY CLUB.
MANY YEARS AGO, I BECAME FRIENDS WITH DR. HARDARTH SUKHDEO. HE CAME FROM GUYANA AND WAS A WORLD WIDE KNOWN SPECIALIST IN THE FIELD OF CULT. HE WAS CONSTANTLY ON TELEVISION ON THE MAJOR BROADCASTS AT THE TIME, BEING INTERVIEWED ABOUT THIS INCREDIBLE HUMAN TRAGEDY OF JONESTOWN, BECAUSE HE WAS A SPECIALIST IN CULT MENTALITY AS WELL AS THE FACT THAT HE WAS FROM GUYANA. I HELPED MUTUAL FRIENDS, THE CHIN BROTHERS OF GEORGETOWN GUYANA, CECIL AND CYRIL, WHO WERE CUSTOMERS OF MINE FOR JUKE BOXES AND GAMING EQUPMENT IN THE EARLY 70’S, TO MAKE NEW LIVES FOR THEMSELVES BOTH HERE AND IN CANADA WHEN GUYANA WAS GOING COMMUNIST UNDER FORBES BURNHAM. SO WE BECAME FRIENDS AND DR. HARARTH AND I OFTEN TIMES DISCUSSED THE REASON SO MANY JEWISH KIDS WERE PART OF CULTS. DR. SUKHDEO SAID THE PROBLEM WAS LACK OF SPIRITUALITY WITHIN THE JEWISH RELIGION AND THAT YOUTH WERE SEEKING SPIRITUALITY IN CULTS. DR. SUHKDEO SPECIALIZED IN EXTRICATING MEMBERS OF CULTS FROM THE LIFE WITHIN THE CULT WORLD. HE PASSED AWAY YEARS AGO. HE WAS ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT. WERE HE ALIVE TODAY, I WONDER IF HE WOULD BE SUCCESSFUL IN HELPING BRAIN WASHED LIBERAL JEWS FROM THEIR ADDICTION TO THE CULT OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY THAT HATES ALL JEWS.
I HEARD ONCE SOME PEOPLE SAYING THAT IF CHABAD WASN’T JUDAISM, IT WOULD BE A CULT. BUT I CONCLUDED THAT THEY WERE SAYING THIS OUT OF IGNORANCE. CHABAD IS ANYTHING BUT A CULT. IT’S PURE JUDAISM WITH A PERSONALITY. THE REBBE WAS THE TZADDIK OUR TIMES. HE WAS THE RABBI OF ALL RABBANIM. LIKE THE GREAT FORMER CHIEF ASHKENAZIC RABBI OF ISRAEL, RABBI YISRAEL MEIR LAU, A FEW YEARS AGO, SPOKE AT THE GRADUATING CLASS OF THE RABBINICAL COLLEGE OF AMERICA, AND REMINDED THE GRADUATES THAT YOUR S’MICHA, ORDINATION AND AUTHORITY AS A TEACHER OF TORAH, GOES BACK TO THE TIME OF MOSES, WHO GAVE ORDINATION TO JOSHUA BEN NUN. THAT’S MORE THAN 3300 YEARS OF TRADITION.
Your outright rejection of millions of Conservative, Reform and secular Jews is what will eventually lead to our downfall and fulfill the wisdom of Abraham Lincoln that a "house divided against itself cannot stand."
THAT’S EXACTLY MY POINT, THERE IS ONLY ONE JUDAISM, AND THAT IS ORTHODOXY, THERE IS NO OTHER JUDAISM. AS YOU CAN SEE IN YOUR OWN TEMPLE IN LONG ISLAND, THE MEMBERSHIP IS DECLINING RAPIDLY. NEARLY EVERY NON ORTHODOX TEMPLE IS SUFFERING ITS OWN VERY EXISTENCE BECAUSE THE YOUNGER GENERATION HAS TURNED ITS BACK ON BEING JEWISH. NO MATTER WHAT THE EFFORT INCLUDING BIRTH RIGHT, THIS IS NOT GOING TO KEEP JEWS AS JEWS. I KNOW THIS DOESN’T MAKE YOU FEEL GOOD, IT DOESN’T MAKE ME FEEL GOOD, BUT TRUTH IS TRUTH. Orthodoxy's boycott of any attempt to harness the clout of a Judaism united against the nations is a capital sin. SORRY JAKEY BUT IT’S THE OTHER WAY AROUND, THE NON ORTHODOX WORLD IS JOINING FORCES WITH THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY WHICH IS INCREASINGLY HATEFUL OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE SO NON ORTHODOX WHICH IS THE POPULATION OF THE JEWS WHO VOTED FOR OBAMA (THE AMIN AL HUSSEINI, THE GRAND MUFTI FRIEND OF HITLER OF OUR TIME) AND BIDEN, THE PUPPET OF OBAMA You and I will never agree on your pontifications on Orthodoxy, YOU ARE NOT HEARING OR MAYBE NOT WANTING TO HEAR WHAT I AM SAYING. I AM SAYING VERY CLEARLY THAT ONLY ORTHODOXY WILL SURVIVE AS ONLY ORTHODOXY HAS SURVIVED SINCE DAY ONE OF THE CREATION OF THE JEWISH RELIGION. IF A JEW REJECTS THE PRINCIPLE OF TORAH GIVEN BY GD TO MAN THROUGH MOSES, THEN IT’S NO LONGER A RELIGION, IT’S SOMETHING ELSE, BUT IT’S NOT A RELIGION. ON THE OTHER HAND, I ADMIT. I AM A PICK AND CHOOSER ORTHODOX JEW WHICH DOESN’T MAKE ME A HYPOCRITE, IT MAKES ME A PICK AND CHOOSER SINCE I WILL NEVER DENY THE ORIGIN OF THE JEWISH RELIGION, THE GIVING OF TORAH BY G-D TO MOSHE RABBEINU ON MT. SINAI. but we can sit in concert on issues facing all of us Jews. Enough on that for now. I look forward to our next lunch.
CAN’T WAIT, SHABBAT SHALOM V’G’MAR TOV, YOUR PAL, MYRON SUGERMAN
Jack Zucker <jack@fullcirclecolor.com>:
Wow Myron, that was some ramble. As I predicted though, we won't convince each other. With love, see you soon.
Myron Sugerman <charming@eclipse.net>:
G-D BLESS YOU, I’LL SPEAK TO STEPHEN GOLUB AND BARRY AND SEE WHEN WILL BE THE NEXT MEETING OF THE *BOARD* BORED OF DIRECTORS\
WITH LOVE FROM THE CONSERVATIVE SIDE OF THE ROOM BACK AT YA FROM THE CORRECT DIDE OF THE ROOM.
I wrote:
Mr. Zucker,
I understand the urge to argue with political rivals (as ignorant as they may be) about earthly matters.
But why you keep arguing with somebody who refers to a mythical fairy tale (that one may or may not believe in), as "IMMUTABLE AND IRREVOCABLE TRUTH" (*) - this is beyond me. Doing this, you are totally wasting your precious time on earth.
(*) The consensus among Judaism scholars is that Rambam himself did not believe in most of those 13 principals.
Cheers,
Avner E.
Norman cohen <ishahrofah@gmail.com>:
1. The Effendi's defamatory definition of a "Judaism scholar" is on par with his definition of a "scientist".
His assertion about Rambam is, on its face, defamatory ---- what we can expect from an idol-worshiper.
2. Relative to Zucker's idol worship, i may be a "right-winger".
But there are today very few "right-wingers" in America as that term has been understood during my lifetime.
What we are should be described as democratic republican constitutionalists ---- believers in representative government, the rule of law and justice --- something in very short supply in today's dying America.
Norman
I wrote:
I can give you references to those scholars, who would not take the Rambam statements at face value (and by doing that, they followed Rambam's explicit guidelines, as stated in his great philosophical book, "The Guide to the perplexed").
But what would you know, you never read this book; You are only capable of making statements based on no data.
Cheers,
Avner E.
Richard Lewis <docr1119@gmail.com>:
Avner writes:
“Rambam himself did not believe in most of those 13 principals.”
Judaism scholars he says.
No, Avner they are left wing NY Times morons.
You want us to believe Rambam dedicated his life to a God and Torah he didn’t believe in?
No Avner,
Rambam knew what he was talking about.
You and your Judaism scholars are way off.
Anyone who sides with Avner’s foolishness ought to spent some time reading Rambam. A much more intelligent source.
Rich Lewis
I wrote:
Here is a list of Judaic scholars, who thought that Rambam did not believe in super-natural. None of them has ever wrote for the NYT:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Pines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshayahu_Leibowitz
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moshe_Halbertal
Cheers,
Avner E.
roger's BB <roger@bayitbrick.com>:
Avner, And you trust RAMBAM? He was a scientist and favored reason & research and the application of logic to solve problems… you gonna trust a guy who thinks?
I wrote:
I take it that you were being ironic.
I trust the thinking methods of Ramnam. His best interpreters (since his very time - the Tibbon father and son) did not buy into his 13 principals being his true opinion.
The greatest interpreter of our time was the late Prof. Leibowitz, who I had the honor to meet at his home. He said that the 13 "principals" chanted in synagogues nowadays were a "vulgar understanding of the views of this great thinker". Being a scientists (and the personal physician of the ruler of Medieval Egypt, Saladin), he could not possibly believe in the resurrection of the death, for instance.
Cheers,
Avner E.
roger's BB <roger@bayitbrick.com>:
Of course I was ironic…..
Like you, I regard RAMBAM as a rationalist. He was brilliant enough to recognize that Torah is allegorical, which in his day was tantamount to transcendental genius.
His firm commitment to the idea that rational observation was reliable is a firmament in my horizon. He understood that science explains the world and Torah explains and teaches spirit and ethics is what makes the Torah more valuable.
These fundamentalist interpretations are manna for fools and the simpleminded; they either eschew or are incapable of the dialectic and cognitive dissonance.
I am an admirer of Saladin. In the late Middle Ages (post crusades) English parents would admonish a naughty child with “Don’t be a richard!!” {don’t remember how to say it in Middle English} in recollection of how badly Richard the Lionheart treated his adversary. (Shalach HaDin had treated with richard, allowing him access to all the holy sites and healed his wounds as well; The Lionheart turned on him and betrayed his trust.) this was likely in 1192….so it is possible that it was RAMBAM who treated him!
Myron Sugerman <charming@eclipse.net>:
Excellent emails with great knowledge.
Shabbat shalom v’G’mar Tov to my dear friend Dr. Roger Brick.
Sep 18, roger's BB <roger@bayitbrick.com>:
AVNER,
I understand your point, however I feel compelled to argue with Myron (he can be interesting, informative, intelligent, humorous and a delight to be with) when he attempts to define me (NY Times reading, Jew hater -- he is wrong on both counts) when I must reserve the right to define my self. I do not denigrate those who believe the fairy tale, only those who seek to impose the fairy tale on me. I could go on and on, but I'll heed your call to save some of the earthly time I have left as I believe it is the only time there is.
I wrote:
Jack,
I never denigrate those who believe in God or the Torah. I only point out that these are subjective beliefs, and definitely not "IMMUTABLE AND IRREVOCABLE TRUTH".
Only the scientific method can lead to this kind of truth, and even in science, only Math really qualifies. Even Physics (which is worked by the most rigorous standards, way more than any religious faith) may be wrong, occasionally.
Sorry that I did not make myself clear on the issue of respecting faith which is different than mine.
I wish that right-wingers could have the same respect, but I guess that this is too much to ask.
Cheers,
Avner E.
Myron Sugerman <charming@eclipse.net>:
Avner,
Did Rambam write 13 Principals or somebody else wrote them and said it was the Rambam?
Shabbat Shalom
I wrote:
Myron,
I don't know. Nobody knows who wrote the 13.
All we know is, that some of them don't go in line with the rational and scientific thinking of Rambam.
Myron Sugerman <charming@eclipse.net>:
Gentlemen,
This is fascinating. Read below
Avner, you use the word “some” but this makes me ask you, do any of the 13 Articles of Faith go in line with rational and scientific thinking?
Avner, This is really interesting as it raises quite a few questions. I never heard this before. This is the first time I ever heard that there are scholars who wrote and said that the Rambam could not have written the 13 Principles of Faith and they base their opinions because “some” contradict the Rambam’s rational and scientific thinking.
I see you are a serious guy. I appreciate that, so let me ask you further.
Let me ask you this. If Rambam (M’Moshe l’Moshe eyne kan c’mo Moshe), considered the greatest Rabbinical mind of history, didn’t write nor believe in some or all of the 13 Articles of Faith, what in Heaven’s name did he believe in?
Removal of the 13 Articles of Faith means the eradication of GOD, the Supreme being and his Torah, then that means we don’t have a religion and so if we don’t have a religion, then what do we have? What’s left?
Why knock our brains out being Jews? Why don’t we just assimilate wherever we are living whether it’s the America’s, Africa, Europe, Asia, Oceania and throw in the towel on this 3334 years of effort to remain Jews and to pass on the Baton to our subsequent generations if the entire belief is based upon what my pal Jacky Zucker calls “a fairy tale?
Maybe If the earliest Zionists would have accepted Uganda, millions of Jews might not have been killed. I read that Herzl was tempted with the idea of Uganda but was told by others, it won’t fly, Jews want to go home.
We all know that Home means the Land of Israel, promised to the Children of Israel by the GOD of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
By the way, If it’s a Fairy Tale as Jacky says, let me ask Jacky out of curiosity where were you Wednesday night and all day Thursday and in that time span, did you eat?
Let’s assume for the purpose of discussion, that there’s nothing left. Then if there’s nothing left, my question to you is what are you doing with your family and your Boys in the Jewish Homeland where you served honorably and your Boys are serving honorably in the Israel Defense Forces? Kol HaKavod!
Shabbat Shalom v’Chag Semeach
Myron Sugerman
I wrote:
Mr. Sugerman, wo wo, hold on.
You are mixing a number of matters (which are all interesting, but let's do one by one).
I didn't say that Rambam did not believe in ALL 13 principle. Just some.
You say that this is new to you. Well, there is a discipline called "radical interpretation of Rambam", and this did not start in the modern time, but - surprise - at the time when Rambam was still alive! The first scholar to ever translate his monumental work, "The Guide" into Hebrew (it was written in Arabic; Yes, the language of the alleged religion of your beloved Obama...) - that first guy was Shmuel Ibn Tibbon:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_ibn_Tibbon
He speculated that Rambam, as a rational philosopher and scientist, could not possibly believe in any super-natural idea. Therefore, he wrote the Guide in order to reconcile the science of his time (astronomy, math, medicine etc.) with the Torah. Samuel asked Rambam (who lived in Egypt) in a letter if this was what he meant, and Rambam kind of confirmed that - that's a source for debate among scholars.
Samuel wanted to meet with Rambam, to make sure he understood correctly those very radical ideas, so he started the long journey by boat, but alas - Rambam died before they met (around 1205).
The argument continues to these days. Obviously, the Orthodox can't accept those ideas, so no Yeshiva Bukher has ever seen in his Yeshiva a copy of The Guide (mind you, probably the most important Jewish philosophy text of all times) - unless that Bukher dared to visit the Jewish philosophy department at a university (I've seen them with my own eyes, courageous young people, and intellectually advanced).
So, Rambam probably did believe in God, and in the first 7 of the principals:
1. God is the only entity whose existence does not depend on something outside if it.
2. God is one, and unlike anything else.
3. God has no body, and is free of any matter.
4. God has been existing forever.
5. Only to God must one pray, with no mediators.
6. Humans can become prophets.
7. Moses' prophecy was unique from all other prophets, in a number of ways.
As for the other principals, they are in question:
8. The Torah came from heaven;
10. God "knows" all deeds of humans;
11. God rewards the righteous, and punishes the sinners;
12. Messiah will come;
13. The dead will resurrect;
- it's a puzzle how a rational, anti-mystical such as Rambam could believe in these.
The consensus among the radical followers (all who I mentioned, and many more) is that he didn't.
This is why some "good Orthodox" Jews burnt his books... because they too thought that he did not believe in them.
Regarding #9: that the Torah will never change - well, Rambam himself has changed it, in a number of ways.
And historically, we know for a fact, that what you guys practice today as Judaism - is so much different than what was practiced in the past - every century and its adjustments. You want examples? I have hundreds of them.
But this subject is way too broad to discuss in an email... and I am far from being an expert or scholar.
I would not dare to say that I can be a teacher of those complicated matters. So - Zil Gemor (= Aramaic for "go learn yourself"...)
Cheers,
Avner E.
Myron Sugerman <charming@eclipse.net>:
***You say that this is new to you. Well, there is a discipline called "radical interpretation of Rambam", and this did not start in the modern time, but - surprise - at the time when Rambam was still alive!
that’s no surprise, I just wrote to Barry to tell him that Rambam was heavily criticized in his time by others especially for reference to the rules of logic by Aristotle, who the Rambam admired.
***The first scholar to ever translate his monumental work, "The Guide" into Hebrew (it was written in Arabic; Yes, the language of the alleged religion of your beloved Obama...) - that first guy was Shmuel Ibn Tibbon:
the Rambam wrote his Moreh Nevukim in Arabic so that everybody would be able to understand since the Southern part of Spain called Andalus, everybody spoke Arabic especially going long back in time even before the invasion by the Moors lead by General Tariq (GibralTAR) is named in the honor of General Tariq and probably long before the invasion by the Moors 711. The Moors found the Jews useful in their invasion of Anadalus(ia) and used them to hold down territory so that armies moving North could be used for warfare and conquest.
Arabic was the lingua franca throughout the Southern part of Spain. I doubt if anybody even heard of a language called Ladino in the South since I don’t believe pre-Cervantes Spanish was used in the South. I’m not an expert but I would imagine that the Ladino of the Jews was the Spanish language used in the Northern Kingdoms of Christian Spain, prior to the modernization of Spanish by Miguel Cervantes.
***He speculated that Rambam, as a rational philosopher and scientist, could not possibly believe in any super-natural idea. Therefore, he wrote the Guide in order to reconcile the science of his time (astronomy, math, medicine etc.) with the Torah. Samuel asked Rambam (who lived in Egypt)
born in Cordoba 1135, then when he was approximately age of Bar Mitzvah the family escaped to Fez (Morocco) and again had to leave Fez when Jihadists were on the war path and he went to Jerusalem where he found nothing but snakes and scorpions but not enough Jews to make a Minyan, his final stop was Fostat, the ancient City of Cairo
I informed Barry which I will share with you and others that the Rebbe himself ordered his Talmidim to learn three sections of Rambam daily. I doubt if the Rebbe told them that they weren’t allowed to study Moreh Nevukim, however my son is a well known and respected Rabbi and Scholar of Torah and Talmud including he gives the Daily Daf Yomi and is on internet, so I will ask him all these questions and get back to you. He’s not Chabad, He’s not Black Hat, he’s not Lakewood, he’s not modern Orthodox, he’s a Yeshiva University graduate and a follower of the Vilna Gaon and that lineage who is a High School Rebbe teaching both Religious subjects as well as Secular.
***- it's a puzzle how a rational, anti-mystical such as Rambam could believe in these.
then as promised I will ask my son Rabbi Ben Sugerman and I’ll get back to you
***The consensus among the radical followers (all who I mentioned, and many more) is that he didn't.
okay, this is the first time I ever heard of “radical followers” but let me make it very clear, Myron Sugerman didn’t have the privilege of a Yeshiva education, in fact I might suggest you go to You Tube and type in Myron Sugerman interview with Valuetainment. My background and field of specialty was somewhat different
***This is why some "good Orthodox" Jews burnt his books... because they too thought that he did not believe in them.
yes I knew that and told Barry
***And historically, we know for a fact, that what you guys practice today as Judaism - is so much different than what was practiced in the past - every century and its adjustments. You want examples? I have hundreds of them.
well yes, you’re right, we couldn’t find the High Priest on Yom Kippur in our Chabad house to slaughter a Goat and sprinkle its blood on the curtains within the Holy of Holies. We had a Goat lined up but the High Priest skipped town with the deposit the Rabbi gave him to go to AC. Our High Priest heard that the Rambam didn’t believe in some of the 13 articles of Faith, got annoyed when he head it and shot down to AC to shoot dice. He throws dice the way he sprinkles Goat’s blood.
***But this subject is way too broad to discuss in an email... and I am far from being an expert or scholar.
you’re doing damn good and obviously you are a serious man to be taken seriously
***I would not dare to say that I can be a teacher of those complicated matters. So - Zil Gemor (= Aramaic for "go learn yourself"...)
I do that non stop. As a man of vast world experience, at nearly 84 years of age, I find the genius within our Religion more powerful than all the Nuclear Bombs that are being manufactured right at this moment in Iran, thanks to Amin el Husseini (a.k.a. Al Haji Baraq Hussein Obama)
Jack Zucker <jack@fullcirclecolor.com>:
Avner -- Thank you for a brilliant master class on the subject. I have found that the Orthodox mix kasher mit munn to obfuscate any fact not to their liking and the conversation ends when it comes full circle to, "...because God said so."
Myron Sugerman <charming@eclipse.net>:
I wish I had the level of knowledge needed to add something of value to this.
WOW
I wrote:
Thank you, Jack.
But - How is this more respectful than what I said?...
Honestly, I do respect other views than mine. I just think that I can recognize an "alternative fact" (to use one of Trump's legacy terminology) when I see one, and I pointed them out to Mr. Golub.
When somebody tries to undermine one's views, by pointing out that the leader that one supports, is a Muslim (as if that was a sin by itself) - I see it as being disrespectful, and all the more so, when it's a lie.
I am 100% sure that other than those comments, Mr. Golub is a wonderful person. Some of my greater family members can make such comments, and I still love them.
It is my experience in life, that moral and wonderful people can sometimes be part of horrible deeds. This doesn't make me respect then less.
Cheers,
Avner E.
I wrote:
Mr. Sugerman,
I intend to answer your other questions, if you are interested that is.
I just want to point out, that my intention in this "13 principals" debate is not to make the claim that I know for a fact what Rambam thought; or whether God exits or not. I don't have monopoly of the truth (contrary to some people, who make categorial statements, sometimes with no basis at all. I make statements, based on evidence - but I know that I may still be wrong).
I'm just giving you what I learned about some researches of the subject. Do with that whatever you please.
Cheers,
Avner E.
Myron Sugerman <charming@eclipse.net>:
Mr. Efendowicz,
Call me Myron so that I can call you Avner.
Yes I am fascinated in what you write. Rambam was a most fascinating personality besides genius of geniuses. The Rambam composed all of his works while never able to live a consistent life style. The family was always on the run. His Brother David died with all family wealth while on a commercial voyage. The Fanastics chased him out of Cordoba, then to Fez, then to J’lem, then to Fostat, then a Horse carried his body to Tiberia (at least that’s the legend). Did I read somewhere that he went into a depression after the passing of his Brother David?
I wrote:
Thanks Myron.
You are very knowledgeable.
Yes, Rambam is known to have been depressed for a good one year, after his brother David, who provided for Rambam so that we would not need to worry financially - his ship sunk with all his wealth. He is known to have not left his home that entire year.
To think that he wrote all his monumental books - the Mishna commentary, the Mishne Tora (Yad Ha-khazakah) and the Guide - all without a computer or decent library, some of it while travelling in a boat - that's inconceivable in todays low standards...
Cheers,
Avner E.
Barry Wolfensohn <barrydwolf@gmail.com>:
Myron is it time to call in Rabbi Herson?
Myron Sugerman <charming@eclipse.net>:
Barry,
Here’s the answer you will get from Rabbi Herson.
The Rambam is considered the greatest Rabbi of history. There is written on his Grave in Tiberias “m’Moshe l’Moshe ayne kan c’mo Moshe” which means from Moshe to Moshe there never arose another like Moshe, the reference meaning from Moshe Rabbeinu to Rabbi Moshe Ben Maimon (the Rambam).
The Rambam (the acronym) or Maimonides (the name in Greek) is without comparison. Our Rabbi Moshe Herson is one of the Sages of Chabad. The Great Rebbe z’l himself instructed all the Talmidim, students of Chabad, to read three paragraphs of Rambam per day. Those are orders.
Here’s my prediction. Call Rabbi Herson and tell him that somebody told you that there are scholars who say that the Rambam didn’t believe in some of his own 13 Articles of Faith because it does not fit with the Rambam’s scientific approach to Torah, Rabbi Herson will tell you, that the guy is nuts. Of course our esteemed Master and Teacher doesn’t use those words, however Avner himself will tell you what I just told you, that no Chabad Rabbi or Scholar, including and especially Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz (z’l) would give any merit to this statement.
By the way, the Rambam was highly criticized in his time by other great Rabbis for using Aristotelean logic to explain Torah. Rambam was criticized even after his passing and it wasn’t till years later that his genius was accepted by all, without exception.
I wrote:
Is your distinguished Rabbi Herson orthodox?... I would bet he is.
That explains it.
Most Orthodox are... well, orthodox.
They resist any change, any fresh thinking, any criticism other than what's allowed by... them.
Therefore, the Rambam, a very fresh, sharp and out-of-the-box thinker (as any good scientist must be), would dismiss the zealousness of Orthodoxy. Although, I will give you that: he would not say it publicly - he was afraid that the Common Jews, the laymen ("המון" in medieval Hebrew, and that's not a good trait) would be harmed by progressive thinking, therefore the truth must be concealed from them; that's not my opinion, Rambam says this in the Guide:
BTW: there are pictures of the Rambam, along with pictures of other respected Rabbis, in grocery stores and other businesses, for good fortune. Rambam said very specifically, that only the stupid, or the uneducated persons ("פתאים" in the Hebrew translation by Samual Ibn Tibbon, "סכלים" in the translation by Rav Kapakh; "אלג'האל" in the original Arabic: to avoid confusion, this word is in Arabic الجاهل, which means Ignorant) - only those laymen could believe that pictures of Rabbis can bring good luck. Other Rabbis think so, and may be honored to be hanged on the walls for good luck; But Rambam would most probably be mad of the idea.
The greatest follower of Rambam in our time was Prof. Leibowitz, a devout Orthodox. What he thought about hanging pictures of the Lubavitcher for good fortune - I will spare from you. He was less polite than the Rambam.
Cheers,
Avner E.
Myron Sugerman <charming@eclipse.net>:
Dear Avner, read again what I wrote below. Obviously you didn’t read it. I said from the very beginning not only Rabbi Herson is Chabad, I made reference to what the Rebbe ordered in terms of the Rambam for all Chabad and for all Jews.
September 19, Richard Lewis <docr1119@gmail.com>:
Myron,
Your analysis makes sense.
Avner’s is nonsense.
Rambam didn’t believe what he wrote - silly on the face of it if not downright stupid.
Rich Lewis
Myron Sugerman <charming@eclipse.net>:
Doc,
Avner gave several names. I looked up the name of Professor Yeshayahu Leibowitz on google. Apparently this was quite an ingenious mind and a rare combination of a strict Orthodox Jew with Libertarian views, and it does mention that Dr. Leibowitz wrote concerning the Rambam although one has to research further to see more what Avner writes pertaining to Professor Leibowitz’s views on Rambam and the 13 Articles of Faith.
At the end of the day, I’m a simple man with a limited knowledge, like the words below that Avner uses to describe men of ignorance like me, especially since the walls of my apartment contain the portraits of great Rabbanim, many of the Rebbe of course.
I love the teachings of great men, who we all admire, but understanding my own limitations, I do not try to be smarter than I am and conclude who and what is G-D and what is truth?
All the great minds of the world, whoever lived, never came back from Death to tell those of us who are living, whether their philosophical theories that they taught while on earth were correct or not.
My simple conclusion is that for sure there must have been a Moshe Rabbeinu because we had and still do have the Rebbe, whose words are even more powerful today than when he was on this man’s earth. All great men’s great words only increase in strength and meaning as time goes by.
When future generations of mobsters hear the words “if you are thinking you have to use Muscle at the end, it’s because you didn’t use your head in the beginning,” they’ll be wondering who came up with those words of wisdom?
The Rebbe commanded the learning of Rambam. The Rebbe never said that the Rambam could not have believed in some of the 13 Articles of Faith because it didn’t fit with the Rambam’s scientific and Aristotelean approach to Torah.
Case closed but not the discussion, let it continue because it compels me to research more and to learn more.
Doc, Shava Tov v’d’reetshat Shalom v’Shana Tova
Your good friend Myron
I wrote:
Amen, Myron!
Thanks for your wise comments.
One little addition: When the Rebbe commanded to read the Rambam daily, I am almost certain that he meant to read the Yad Ha-Khazaka (Yad = 14), meaning his 14 chapters of Mishne Torah. That's his great Halachic work - not the philosophic one.
In the Yeshivas, when they say "it's written in The Rambam", they always mean - the Mishne Torah, not the Guide.
The Guide is not to be seen in Orthodox Yeshivas, for a reason - that's exactly the text where Rambam says that his true opinion is not explicit in the book, but rather has to be logically inferred, and this can only be done by the greatest of students (התלמיד המעולה), not those who studied the Halacha, but those who studied Philosophy. In those times, philosophy = Aristotle, who was referred by Rambam as The Head of all Wise Men (ראש החכמים).
So, whoever says, without any reservation (like Mr. Lewis did), that Rambam wrote exactly what he believed in, plain and clear - has never read The Guide.
Cheers,
Avner E.
Roger's בית בריק <roger@bayitbrick.com>
Bravo, Avner.
I wrote:
You guys being from the New York area, may be able to visit and see the JTS manuscript collection (if you are admitted that is...), over there is an original letter in the Rambam handwriting. When this was presented to us, the curator won't let anybody even touch the box...
https://digitalcollections.jtsa.edu/islandora/object/jts%3A635667#page/1/mode/1up
Cheers,
Avner E.
September 20, Myron Sugeramn <charming@eclipse.net>:
Avner,
Don’t you think that this rare collection of writings of the Rambam should be in Israel?
Chag Semeach
I wrote:
Myron,
Who am I to decide on this?
But if you point a gun to my head - then No, I think that it should be kept in a safe place...
("Israel is the least safe place for Jews in the world, statistically speaking" - Prof. Leibowitz; what he meant by that [as if I qualify to be a commentator of the professor], is a topic for another, deep discussion).
In the case of the Keter Aram Tzova - then yes, sure, Israel is a better place for it than Syria, where it resided for 600 years (thought to have been brought there by the great-great-great-grandson of Rambam, David Bar-Yehoshua). But New York?... is a reasonably safe place, for the moment.
Cheers,
Avner E.
Myron Sugerman <charming@eclipse.net>:
I wasn’t thinking of it in terms of a safe place, I was thinking of it in terms of Israel today as the place with greatest population of Jews.
I wrote:
That brings us to the other topic I was thinking about:
Is Israel the State of Judaism? Or is it a state for those Jews (not necessarily the majority of Jews), who choose to run the show by themselves?
That's a deep question.
Cheers,
Avner E.
